Now how much love do you have in your heart for the "poor farmer" (contradiction in terms).
The bags are indeed storage containers for various grains. Whomever invented these things is going to be very wealthy. A machine sort of rolls out the long sacks as the product is conveyed in. Pretty innovative idea. The only problem is that the farmers have to wait until the moisture content drops very low before they can harvest the crop. I expect that some of the storage savings will be offset by the drop in bushel price for crackage. This will only be a problem for a couple of years though, because combines will be adjusted and the seed companies will gear their research toward genetically altering hybrids to produce more sturdy cellulose structures on the outer shells of monocots and dicots.
Another problem will be when hunting season rolls around, and drunk rednecks everywhere know that there are millions of pounds of feed just laying on the ground, a mere pocketknife slice away,

ragman,

I am with you on this one. It is what it is.

Want to talk about welfare and taxes?

Rank Beneficiary Location Crop Subsidy Program
PY 2003-2005 †
1 King Ranch Inc Kingsville, TX 78364 $3,651,879
2 Maurice Wilder ∗ Havana, IL 62644 $1,768,880
3 Randolph B Rachal ∗ Taft, TX 78390 $1,686,548
4 Delmon Ellison Jr ∗ Seagraves, TX 79359 $1,576,442
5 Duwane Billings ∗ Seagraves, TX 79359 $1,348,750
6 Rex Darby ∗ Seminole, TX 79360 $1,254,474
7 Mike C Tyler ∗ Lamesa, TX 79331 $1,248,158
8 Kent E Peterson ∗ Lamesa, TX 79331 $1,234,297
9 Glenn W Hogg ∗ Lamesa, TX 79331 $1,216,956
10 Walter Billings ∗ Seagraves, TX 79359 $1,174,174
11 Ted Higginbottom ∗ Seminole, TX 79360 $1,172,785
12 Boyd Liska ∗ Robstown, TX 78380 $1,167,490
13 Donald Houser ∗ Taft, TX 78390 $1,109,227
14 Matt Adams ∗ Brownfield, TX 79316 $1,109,144
15 Sam A Lawson ∗ Taft, TX 78390 $1,090,116
16 Jevon Cheuvront ∗∗ Seminole, TX 79360 $1,086,762
17 Jerry Weaver ∗ Brownfield, TX 79316 $1,079,238
18 Peter Letkeman ∗ Seminole, TX 79360 $1,077,706
19 Jerry Dale Kitchens ∗ Slaton, TX 79364 $1,065,028
20 A Clay Kemper ∗ Midland, TX 79707 $1,048,757

whats the word of the new plastic tube "storage containers" for milo??? They are laying off of 35 just south of Pt. Lavaca.

I assume its cheaper to put thier product here instead of paying a gin for storage. dunno.

anybody know?!?!?

OMG FATBOY:......

I followed your link and spent a couple of hours there and probably added about a quarter inch to the plaque in my coronary arteries.

Don't get me wrong; I was raised around farmers and ranchers and knew about subsidies but I never had any idea of how much of my tax dollars goes to this blantant waste.

I have no problem in subsidizing the poor farmer who is just barely making it or who has some bad years, or even in cases when we don't want farmers to grow certain crops in order to stabilize the market, but this is ridiculous.

In Duval County....where I was raised and every inch of which I know like the back of my hand since I used to go with my dad to work oilfield every summer......they gave out over half a million dollars in 2005.

Nothing grows in Duval County except cactus, rattlesnakes, and drug dealers. The cattle that are run there live on brush and burnt prickley pear......A HALF A MILLION DOLLARS paid to subsidize crops that do not exist, and could never exist no matter how hard you tried to get them to exist.

Astounding.....totally astounding!!

http://farm.ewg.org/sites/farmbill200...

type in the zip code or the name of your farmer friend. then search. good reading.

top 5 subsidize farms from '03-'05:
1 Balmoral Farming Partnership Newellton, LA 71357 $7,908,563
2 Phillips Farm Yazoo City, MS 39194 $5,893,194
3 Due West Glendora, MS 38928 $5,417,792
4 Kelley Enterprises Burlison, TN 38015 $4,933,845
5 Walker Place Danville, IL 61832 $4,627,034

Yeah, I do. And I agree.

It's counterproductive to say that it's ok to break the law because it's profitable/helps the economy/no one's getting hurt/they're just trying to make a life, take your pick. If any or all of the above are true (I don't believe they are) then the law needs to be changed. Until then, those who choose to ignore the law are criminals, plain and simple. IMO, so are the ones who choose to ignore those who choose to ignore the law - on either side.

This is, I think, by and large the argument that these illegals are doing the jobs Americans, or even ostensibly the legal immigrants, won't do. I think that's hogwash. Although I don't have the statistics, the web site or the polls to prove it (sorry, Mike) I *do* believe that if unskilled illegals were freeing up Americans to do the more skilled work there might be some merit to the argument that these criminals truly are performing a service for our economy. I don't however believe that's the case. I see enough supremely unskilled Americans who could fill those jobs just as well, if perhaps not quite so cheaply. If they *won't* take those I have no more sympathy for them than I do for those who illegally take them.

Julie in part worked her way through college by getting up at 4 a.m. and picking asparagus, going to classes and then returning to pick more in the evenings. (Yes, in good years it grows that fast.) As she progressed through school she graduated to working in a winery pressing grapes and finally doing the lab testing to determine the optimum harvest point. She picked cherries before and after her day job at the hospital to finance trips to Europe, Africa and the Holy Land. The only one of her family to have done so - ever.

It's all in your "want to."

Ernie

Not a single thing in that post that I could take exception with. The point I was making is that certain industries should not be deemed acceptable to employ illegals. For instance, is cocaine users could increase the profitability of package delivery companies because of an ability to drive faster without incident due to a heightening of the senses, I would not be out there advocating that illegals should be allowed, so that they could work for UPS. Even if it meant that mailing a package was cheaper.
Get it?

I didn't say, nor intend to infer, Bundy, that you not of what you speak. Simply pointing out a seemingly overlooked point in the rich farmer/poor farmer discussion. (Argument? :-) It just seemed to me that too often the "sides" focus only on a small segment of an issue without taking the big picture into perspective.

I think in this instance, one side (and now I forget who took which one actually) thinks farmers are a big part of the illegal immigration problem by hiring a majority, or a least a significant portion, of them. The opposition is of the mind that farmers are, by and large, blameless.

As with any issue, there's more than just these two opposing sides. Yes, agriculture hires illegals. My ex's grandparents had one on staff practically every summer on their sheep ranch in NM. They were fine upstanding people... but were, nonetheless, breaking the law.

On the other hand, my uncle's hat brim was curved just so.... from looking in the mailbox every day to see if the gu'ment check had come. Milk price supports, CRP "layout" ground, USDA wildlife program. (Don't remember the official name for that one but the USDA paid a sum each year to leave some crops standing and to not till some strips of land to encourage wildlife inhabitation. We were big hunters then so not a bad deal to get paid to NOT do something you would have NOT done anyway.) I'm sure there have been others over the years.

No one's blameless but no one's solely to blame either. But that still leaves us with the problem to solve.

The question is "How?"

Ernie

Ernie, we can all lay out scenarios that exclude the comments of others. You failed to mention that an ever-growing percentage of farmers don't own any land at all. Sharecroppers and cash-rent farmers are very common. These farmers aren't receiving oil royalties, and they are still anything but poor.
You lost me on your part about the big-name families of the area. What was the point you were trying to make?
My point was, is and will continue to be that illegals are not essential to the agriculture industry. They make life easier for some farmers, but why should we care?
I'm sure the suspension of the Constitution and the Code of Criminal Procedure would make life easier for cops, but are all of y'all advocating that?
Ernie, the reason I restrict my dialogue to the plight of cotton farmers is because it is what I know. I would be one heck of a hypocrite if I continually told bighorn to stick to topics he had knowledge of, while at the same time delving into unknown areas myself. Wouldn't I?

Good job, Ernie!

Cotton farmers and beef ranchers in S. Texas aren't the only "farmers" in the country. I think some perspective might be in order. There's one (very big) constituent involved in farming/ranching in TX, OK, NM, and some other significant oil producing states that seems to have been ignored in this conversation. Oil royalties play a large part in the profitability of many farmers in the region.

I too, grew up working on a farm. My aunt and uncle were and are primarily dairy farmers and my grandparents were beef and row crop farmers. Not in TX or OK though, in western MO where who owns or retains the mineral rights to a property is but a wisp of smoke in a real estate purchase. My grandfather's brothers however are high-brow gentlemen farmers in the TX panhandle supported in large part by their producing oil wells. All three are or were before their passing, comfortable millionaires. By contrast, Uncle and Gradfather worked before sunup to past sundown most days on hardscabble dirt farms. Grampa left little to his heirs and Uncle is 70+ and still getting up at 4 a.m. most days to milk before heading to the fields to till, plant, cultivate, fertilize and harvest crops before returning home to milk again, usually after dark.

Neither has ever, as best I know, ever hired a single illegal alien.

Mention was made of the O'Connors, Welders, Stiles, Bauers. Employed in the oilfield service industry, there's not a one of those names that haven't appeared on half a dozen or more wells that *I've* worked on. And I'm far from the only employee of my company nor is mine the only oilfield service company in the area.

That having been said, though, not many farmers still pick cotton by hand or milk cows the old fashioned way. (I actually did for a while until my uncle got the new fangled milking machines...) But there have yet to be developed, or at least in general use, mechanical harvesters for most "truck" crops including, lettuce, asparagus, carrots, etc. and most fruit crops such as apples, peaches, pears and cherries. For the most part, those crops are almost all picked by hand.

Want to know where a big part of those crops are produced? My wife is from the Yakima Valley area of WA state. Trust me, there is a similar or even smaller Hispanic population here in Victoria than in Sunnyside WA and I'd venture a guess that a LOT fewer here are illegal than there.

Considering those two criteria, those two facts, I'd logically surmise that yes, agriculture does employ its fair share of illegals.

Which sort of brings us back around to the original topic, doesn't it?

Ernie

SORRY! What was the question. OH, scared me.

ANSWER THE QUESTION, BUNDY!

Munny.
He is the "Unforgiven"
I had a self lubricator, but I got rid of her.

Is defeat that hard for you to admit? Now you want to talk about depreciation? OK, let's go. What would you like to know.
Once again, stay away from topics that you lack knowledge of. I guess you are referring to the 9970 that I gave the address for?
Do you know at what intervals spindles are rotated, then at what intervals they are replaced? What about doffer columns? What about moisture pad columns? How much does a self-lubricating apparatus cost? How much does a grease pump cost? How much more is a machine worth with newly-replaced tires? How about one with a new fan belt and clutch assembly? Or one with basket augers? Or one with basket conveyor chains?
Kind of like Greek, isn't it? I'm still waiting on that $450/acre break down.

Satan: As I have admited....you're right. Arguing with a fool in danger of confusing the public as to his indentity.

Who is Bill Mundy?

Probably more than you have, but I will let you start the bidding process.
Come on guys, don't give up that easily. State some more opinions that I can tear apart in seconds. I was having fun.
Bighorn, you never did break down that $450/acre crop you were talking about.
How much was the seed?
How much was fertilizer?
How much for Pest control?
How much for weed control?
How much for cultivation?
How much for root stimulator?
How much for plant growth formula?
How much for aerial application?
How much for defoliation?
How much for stalk destruction?
How much for soil tillage?
How much for bedding?
How much for harvesting?
How much for transport to gin?
How much for ginning?
How much gin loss do you have?
How much for delinting?
Don't know? Didn't think so.
High school days working for a farmer...LOL

Bill Munny: "deserves got nothing to do with it."

Bundy & bighorn:

How much would it cost for you two turkeys to take a break from the Internet for a while (a long, long while)?

At least you deserve the wrath that will be coming your way.
I hate to say it, but you are right. This idea that farmers should get a free pass it what gives Congress the notion that they are doing good work when they pass these huge farm bills. Some of the less informed around here ought to see for themselves where that money is going. Welders, O'Connors, Bramans, King Ranch, Sytles Cattle Company, Bauer Farms. These are not poor people.

I come from a long line of farmers (share) and cotton pickers (by hand). So I have a great deal of respect for farmers.

However, many years ago I lived on a dairy farm (which hired illegals). The wife of the owner was always going on and on about welfare, until I had my fill. I ask "what do you call government subsidies and price supports?" Well she got madder than a wet hen and exclaimed that wasn't welfare. BUT, what is it, if not.

Discuss, be nice.

Bighorn, please, I'm trying to help you. It is a full-time job trying to keep you from making a fool of yourself. The hours on the unit for the "junk iron" I directed you to was 2675. That's what "separator hours" are. These hours are determined by the amount of time that the fan is running. The fan is what blows the cotton up into the basket, after the spindles have "picked" it from the open bowl, and the doffers have removed it from the spindles. Without the fan, picking the cotton is impossible. That Is why there is a separate hourmeter.
Assuming this machine was purchased in 1999, it has been through 9 harvest seasons. That gives us an average of 300 hours per season. In a very long day, with no rain delays, in decent cotton, this machine could pick 25 acres. That would be around 10 hours of fan time. At 300 hours/year, this machine probably picked 750 acres/year. That is atypical acreage for a producer who does not pick commercially. A commercial picker could not break even by picking 750 acres/year/machine.
Now about the $100,000. These machines can easily last 40 years. Do you honestly believe that they only retain less than 25% of their value after 9 years, on very low production numbers?
I have forgotten more about picking cotton than all of your internet research will give you. Go argue about something you have knowledge of.
As for the illegal immigration issue, I think I have stated my position very clearly, and several times at that. I'm sorry you can't understand it.
In the spirit of good will, let me try another way. Let's say a guy starts an A/C install and repair business. He starts off doing the work himself, then hires additional help as his business expands. Let's say he gets to the point where he has hit a ceiling on work influx, and he has himself, and 2 other teams. As long as he stays on a truck, he makes the kind of money he deems appropriate. However, he feels he shouldn't have to work as hard anymore. So he hire someone to replace him. Since he is overhead now, the profit margin has decreased dramatically. He can't drop the wages of his skilled personnel, or they will quit. Along come several illegals that know A/C work, so he replaces his regular guys with them. Since they will work cheaper, he has now regained the lost profit margin, and he still is not having to work as hard.
Should we let illegals in to make this guy more comfortable?
That is exactly the way many feel about farmers. Sorry, I just don't think they are that special. It is not my job to keep them in business, to the detriment of my community, my earnings, and the degradation of my country.

Bundy: The implication was taken that farmers were "lazy (your words)" and hired Pedro to do his "dirty work". Perhaps I was the only one to read an implication blaming farmers, but it appears not.
Deny that?
This board started on immigration. Do you have anything meaningful to cite?For someone who accused me of "googling" to source my info, you sure found time to look for some junk iron to cite. While you are wasting time, look up production costs per acre in southern Texas. And the NEW cost of machinery, fuel, fertilizer, etc. BTW 3,600 hours is a lifetime for a picker (not the engine, but the unit) and $100,000 is no bargain.
Or better yet, sit back and dream your old "cotton picking days" with that burlap sack and twenty braceros.

Let me go over it one more time, for those who don't read so well. What I object to is the agriculture industry constantly being used as an excuse for illegal immigration. This simply is not true. For those that are employed in agriculture, it is typically because the farmer doesn't want to work as hard as his job requires.
I would still like either one of you to direct me to the post where I said the majority of illegals are employed by farmers. I never said it, and both of you are liars.
The 2 of you are like frogs, hopping from one argument to another to discredit my statements. Why can't you stick to one topic at a time? Is it because I keep proving you wrong?
I don't know where you got the $310,000 cotton picker from, but here's one for you.
http://www.tractorhouse.com/listings/...
Before you even start, I know it is a 5 row machine. The bar extensions, larger fan, conveyor tubes, grease and water capacity cost an extra $15,000, and the unit is around $25,000. These are new prices. The unit on the site is definitely not a commercial unit. Those hours are very low for a unit that is probably 9 years old.

Yes, Popeye...you're right. Sorry for trying to right a wrong (minded).

Ok..I'm lying. What did your first post on this board state? Farmer are lazy? And your point was? They employ illegals to do their "dirty work? That is the point I took from your post.

What did I miss. Besides your value on equipment. Combine for $180K? New, or 5 years worn out?

I re-read the comments. Bighorn your right. Well, my family never employed illegals. So, I am still offended. There is more than one culprit for hiring illegals. If it was only farmers than we would not have approx. 12 million of them here.

Hmm I agree somewhat, but your post makes you sound like a bigot.

Now you are just flat-out lying Bighorn. Where did I state that farmers employ the majority of illegals? What I have said, several times, is that playing on the deep-felt emotions of the public for farmers in order to make an argument in favor of illegal immigration is wrong. Illegals are not as vital to agriculture as many uninformed people think.

No Delight: Bundy blames farmers for employing the majority of illegals (amougst his other prejudices and misinfo). He doesn't realize that there are more illegals in Houston than live in Victoria and the surrounding six counties.

They all must commute to work.

What does the built in cotton module builder from Case IH cost?
I wonder why there is a used JD list in El Campo for $310K?
You are all wet Bundy.

Bundy,
I think its the way your saying things today. I usually don't get offended by you, but your rubbing me wrong today.
When call people lazy and its some of my family members occupation. That is taken personally.

Bighorn, you are just digging yourself a deeper hole.
A top of the line 6-row John Deere cotton picker costs around $280,000.
A top of the line John Deere combine is about $180,000. This is without a header. This is also 2 wheel drive. You can add 4WD for around $20,000, but only about 5% of the combines within 200 miles of here are 4WD.
What else would you like to know?

No, Bundy. Check your facts and figures. Just because you own a John Deere Lawn Mower does not make you a farmer.
If you doubt the figures, ask some who has SOLD a Cotton Picker in the last three years.
How much does farm diesel cost, Bundy? How much does a ton of nitrogen fertilizer cost per ton, Bundy? How much nitrogen fertilizer is used in say, an acre of corn?What is minimum wage, Bundy? What do you think a Combine or Cotton Picker cost?
I have no problem with your position. I place no one on a pedestal. You place farmers  has a major employer of illegals. Call Victoria County Extension offices and ask them how many active, full time row crop farmers are in Victoria County. Ventue a guess.
 

Some of you people have such tunnel vision. I don't hate farmers. Not everything is that cut and dry. What I hate is that the majority of Americans, who know nothing about farming, think that federal laws need to be changed to accomadate the POOR FARMER. Why do they get such public sympathy, while many other industries are demonized?
It just isn't right. I think if the public really was privy to what lives farmers live, they would not hold them up on a pedastal.
I have always been thankful for every job I have ever had. I just don't think that people in certain lines of work should be constantly granted an easier path to success than others. What is difficult to understand about my position?

I believe an expensive and seldom use program was tried under the older Bush. I believe it broke down due to lack of enforcement against employers of illegals.

Some number of years were allowed to get a "green card", or they would be deported. It did not take into account the citizenship of children born by aliens while stateside and drew heavy fire from many diverse groups. From Rednecks to the ACLU as I recall.

Like I stated before, love them without knowing them if you want to. Go down to Victoria Farm Equipment, and ask Jerry Stockbauer when was the last time he sold a cotton picker for $450,000. I have nothing to prove to you. You don't know a thing about farming, and I have no need to prove to you that I do.
I really would like to know which crops cost $450/acre to grow. Your numbers are pulled out of a hat. If they make you feel good, have at it. Please break down the $450/acre for me.
An very good cotton yield for this area is 2 bails/acre. A bail is 500 pounds of pure cotton lint. A good price for cotton right now is 75 cents/pound. According to my math, that would produce $750/acre. If a farmer were putting $450/acre into the crop before harvest, he will be operating in the red.
Your numbers are false, as is your argument. Stick to something you know, not something you just googled.

Bighorn
If I remember correctly- There was a program that brought workers in from Mexico and when the jobs ended and it was time for them to go back, they did not want to and it stirred up a lot of controversy. I just can't remeber what that project was called that is one reason they won't revisit that issue.

Bundy,
I did the books for my family. I know what went out and what came in. I do know a little something. Since, you just worked for that lazy, millionaire farmer did you ever say THANKS for him giving you a job. I'm sure you enjoyed a paycheck and liked that beef in your burger and bread on your plate. If farmers/ranchers quit city people would starve to death. There are a lot more than farmers whining for money from the government.

On subject: Can anyone tell why a meaningful guest worker program seems beyond the grasp of our politicians?

Bundy: A six row machine called a Cotton Picker retails for approx $380 to $475K.
I don't know from what era your experience comes from, but I would ventue your high school days of working on a farm are too far back to be relevant.
Rest assured, you have not run any piece of machinery longer than i have. Autos included.
It is YOU who confuse a farmer, a rancher, and the employee of either. Typical farming operations on the Coastal Plains farm 1,000 to 2,000 acres. With the input cost of $200-450 per acre plus capital expenses of one to five million, these farms are business. In a big way. I doubt most small retail business owners in Victoria handle the money, or risk that the farmer of today does. As yes, they have employees.
A farmers hours are highly variable. I doubt you notice them coming in late at night during harvest or planting. Your comments ring of jealousy.
No harm in your lack of knowledge. Pick another subject of which you may have some expertise or meaningful experience.

You are confusing the farmer with those who work for the farmer. Those who work for the farmer work very hard indeed.
You are also not comparing apples to apples when comparing generations past of farmers to today's farmers.
Like I said, love them if you want. You obviously don't know the truth. Farmers constantly gripe about welfare, but gladly accept the welfare they are entitled to. When commodities are in demand, they want a free market. When surpluses are evident, they want governmental price control. They are the biggest bunch of whiners known to man.

Bundy, well since you say you've been in a cotton picker,for many hours and farmers are lazy. Are you the pot and they are the kettle? Was that hard work or just another day on vacation? My grandpa and dad are ranchers, my great grandpa was a farmer. None were/are millionaires and none of them are lazy. It is sunup to sundown and sometimes through the night.

BTW, I don't need to visit a website to know what a cotton picker costs. I've logged far more hours in one of those machines than you have in a passenger vehicle.

If it makes you feel better to view farmers as a protected group of people, more power to you. I know from first-hand experience, and I am not going to go round and round with you. Beleieve what you want.
Most farmers drop their kids off at school, pick them up after, show up for nearly every school function, take a number of family vacations every year. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with these activities, but the rest of us are working during those times. There are no groups out there advocating a change in federal law to help me have more time off.
I wish you had the opportunity to view the life of a farmer from the inside.

$475K cotton picker? Where did that come from?

Bundy: Substitute your word "farmer" for the noun, "American"  I'd come closer to agreeing with you.
Rising food prices may wake some Americans as to our export of fresh food to lesser countries. Our currency has fallen, therefore our food imports are more expensive. Mexico, Central and South America are glad to raise our food for us.....for a price.
I'd venture more illegals are living and working in Houston than in and on farms in the US. Check any construction site, road building crew, and maintainence outfit and you'll see what I mean.
I don't know many farmers that would turn an illiterate out with a $150K tractor, $475K Cotton Picker or Combine.

For the most part, farmers have become very lazy people who do little to no work themselves. I could care less if a farmer has to actually get his hands dirty again, or hire someone at a decent wage. Most people either don't want to see the farmers as they are, or are afraid to tell it like it is. Farmers have become just like teachers, an untouchable segment of our society. I don't buy it.
If their industry isn't lucrative enough for them to sit on their rears while others do the work ,then they need to get out there and do the work themselves. Why the majority of people have bought into this nonsense about the poor farmers is beyond me. Many of them are millionaires, and the prices for their goods are set by the commodity market.
Higher food prices is just another scare tactic to advance an agenda with no support on its own merit. The falling value of our dollar is to blame for higher food prices, not how much Pedro makes compared to Peter.

Instead of getting into word games, I like to explore the inside baseball of any situation...How does the illegal immigration impact Victoria or Texas? Nationally I like to see what our federal government is doing as far as getting the situation under control...Wasn't it discovered that the U. S. government employed most of the undocumented workers (I think it was about 10,000)if I remember correctly..Didn't the government(Bush) suspend the Davis-Bacon Act to get cheap labor rather than Louisiana union workers to repair the damage from Katrina? The contractors complied.....

Another little tidbit form the Houston Chronicle

Researchers estimate that 12 million illegal immigrants live in the United States, including 1.5 million in Texas, and two-thirds of them work. They are especially prevalent in industries such as construction, food services and agriculture: An estimated three out of four laborers on Texas and U.S. farms are in the country illegally.

"An enforcement-only agenda will disproportionately decimate the sector of the American economy that is, oh by the way, putting food on our table," said Craig Regelbrugge, co-chairman of the Agriculture Coalition for Immigration Reform, which represents U.S. farm labor interests.

http://www.statesman.com/news/content...

Good artice..worthwhile reading.

People do not understand the word " ILLEGAL". I for one do not want people here who can't obey the law. I know things are bad in their country and I agree we should make it easier for people to come here to work, but it needs to be done LEGALLY. They should be punished for breaking laws, as a citizen we would be. This problem is costing citizens who work a lot in taxes. Who do you think the government gets their money from to try and control it? Close the borders! I would rather my money pay for that, than government hand outs, rise in our healthcare cost, and to have no social security that I have been paying on for 16 years already and have 30 more to go before I can retire. I work hard and save for retirement and the last thing I want is that money being taxed and given to someone illegal or someone who did not work, so they can live as well as me. That is horse poop!!

"illegal immigrants are the backbone of the service economy."

Really...I just don't see that. They may be a part of the economy, but not by choice. Because they have pushed their way in. They are not educated enough for anything else so they accept crap jobs that pay crap wages because they have no other choice. Not because they are good, hardworking people willing to do a tough job. They are doing JUST ENOUGH to survive and nothing else. They are only hurting our economy.

It is not my responsibility to check the citizenship of everyone I come in contact with in my day to day life. It is the responsibility of the persons employing those people to be sure of their citizenship. That's the law. And there's good reason for it.

This, in my opinion, is no different that children working for pennies a day working in sweat shops. They don't do it because they want to, they do it because they HAVE TO. And that does NOT make it right.

Jeff...

Next time you need your roof redone or a building framed up, make sure ALL of the workers are legal. Next time you eat at a restaurant, make sure ALL of the dishwashers are legal. It's a fantasy...illegal immigrants are the backbone of the service economy.

If you know anything about business and communications, you know how linked this old world is getting. Putting up fences has never solved problems, and it certainly won't in the 21st century. Ask the Romans. Ask the Chinese. Ask the Germans how long the Atlantic Wall held.

I also think you're being a bit strong calling another human being who is driven to do something better for his family a "snake." Attitudes like yours are what lead to tragedies like the Victoria 19 because we continue to have stupid, restrictive policies in place.

Instead of building a fence, let's streamline a LEGAL process so that they can come here and contribute like they want to. Fencing them out is just an excercise in incredibly expensive, incredibly ignorant futility.

A Legal and affordable means by which immigrant workers can be brougt in....financed by the EMPLOYER, not the TAX PAYER makes much more sense than an expensive, worthless fence.

Why will no politician of either party address this? They are "in the pocket" of the industries that hire these workers is my only conclusion. I'd welcome enlightenment as to why else our "hogs" can't figure this one out.