The government keeps telling us that we must begin reducing our dependence on foreign oil. I wonder how much gasoline 12-20 million illegal immigrants use in our country every year. It must be a considerable amount because the insurance companies saw the need to add a considerable amount to our auto insurance premiums to cover uninsured motorists. Mexicans can come here legally and not risk their lives in the process. On a sidenote...a month or so ago, I saw an article on one of the web news pages about a chicken plant in the deep south where over a hundred workers (all illegals) have been found to have a very deadly form of extremely drug resistant tuberculosis. I say build the fence and build it strong and high.

Roy...I think you are missing the point. No one "hates" Bush. We simply believe he has conducted the most incompetent administration in the history of the country. 4000 plus dead at a continuing cost of $5000 per second to the hard working taxpayers of this country. It's really not personal.

Coulda been immigrants on scholarships.

An these were immigrants?

Did these DEA agents just wake up and find this going on? Let's see, just how long have the girls gone wild video's been out? Traveling far and wide, domestic and international, do you think there might have been more than just beer going on there with the college age people?

And the guns, good grief. Think you could probably find those in some pickups here in Victoria?

This should have been no more than local paper headlines. Show me the truck loads of drugs and guns gathered.

War on drugs, been a failure for years. But they just keep going down the same road.

Soemone mentioned drug trafficking.
Check this out:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/06/s...

This a logical look at the social service burden and referenced. An aritcle in the Journal of Physicians and Surgeons from a Phd., Medical Lawyer

http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/cosman...

A good worker, deadbeats is all relative, because they are human beings with the same human tendencies as everyone.IMO Sandwichh and Redrage00
.What is the actual load on social services? The Rand Corporation said only about 1% of the burden of health care is due to illegal immigration, because they are relatively healthy and they remain in the shadows. This data just another look at the situation
.Right now, because of the newly enacted Arizona Law applying company enforcement, attrition and the slowdown of construction is causing many to go home. I have always said enforcement at the company level, would dry up temptation and the southern border would be more manageable. It's when you have a great influx of people coming across ,that our border agents cannot keep up. Our outdated Homeland Security database needs upgrading so this is not a source of illegal immigration.
Sandwichh mentioned Social Security. It will be interesting; the shape the system will be in without the current contributions without benefits the illegal immigrants are paying.
The slogan, illegal immigration (No) legal immigration (yes) is not a solution, because only a few support illegal immigration.

While I say an illegal alien is a criminal by committing a crime, be it a low level crime, I do not say they are not good workers. Well, most of them anyway. There are some thugs that come over though they are the not the norm.
I have worked with them many years ago. I have seen many go on to become business owners.
This good part of the illegal immigrant does not take away from the load they put on our social services, health care, schools, free luches, etc.. That is going to have to be addressed, but with our presidential candidates it looks like we will go broke in that area before it will be. Many baby boomers who have paid into the system are going to demand a return on their money, just like any system in the private sector.
Plus, why is it wrong for us to control our borders to the south when it seems to be okay for Mexico to control their border to their south? Up to and including, now we have working on giving them money to them to construct THEIR FENCE.
Legal immigration YES. Illegal, NO.

Is our country allowing criminal behavior?
The number of employers prosecuted for unlawfully employing immigrants dropped from 182 in 1999 to four in 2003, and fines collected declined from $3.6 million to $212,000, according to federal statistics.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/...

Look at the big picture.

Illegal entry into the United States is a federal misdemeanor.
As recently as a year and a half ago the protocol was “catch and release" but after all the hoopla Homeland Security has stepped up enforcement on our southern border.
As a native born Victorian, I have seen illegal immigration treated with a wink and a nod. Companies and citizens got their cheap labor and we benefited with cheap prices.
About 6 million of the illegal immigrants entered United States legally but overstayed their visas. Homeland Security's database is inadequate to say the least.
Anyway, immigrant to criminal is a war of semantics.
Like I continue to say, if our southern border was such a haven for terrorist it should have been sealed September 12, 2001.

Well said "Sailor". You should consider running for political office. Your head is on straighter than nearly any "politician" I have listened to in a long time. Your views also reflect those of a great many US citizens.

CG23Sailor,

I agree with you completely. This is what I look for in a comprehensive immigration reform bill. I only use the term immigrant as oposed to illegal because I do not feel they are criminals. Once they have commited a crime other than entry into the country then I can justify using the term illegal. I think your ideas are very fair and something I have been advocating for the past couple of years. The only problem is those on the far right or far left have not been willing to compromise to make it into law.

While I have to agree wholeheartedly with Kenneth's assesment of many of today's American youth, I can't agree that filling tough demanding jobs with illegals is the solution. I worked in the QHSE department for five years and in that role had some say and quite a lot of interaction in the local hiring practice. Now the oilfield isn't particularly known as an easy weekday job nor is it normally considered one of the safest in the market. And of course it has *never* been anything remotely resembling 9-5
Looking over some of the applications we received was enough to get me concerned that I might have skipped too many English classes in elementary school. I never had a clue that "colege" had only one "l" in it nor that "onlly" had two. And we didn't even consider applicants who didn't have a HS diploma or equivalent.

What was - and is - worse is that too many of those that were hired couldn't find an excuse to quit soon enough after discovering the job meant they had to work all hours of the day or night and often both and to actually sweat on a regular basis. One would think that kids who obviously made it through HS by the barest skin of their teeth would have realized a certain amount of sweat equity would be required to reach any level of financial independence. Many - way too many - do not.

cmolina, I am very familiar with the OK/TX Panhandles region and you're correct. Despite my contention that there's nothing out there but sagebrush and blow sand, the area has given rise, particularly in the last decade, to cattle and hog feedyards galore. Obviously where there are feedyards preparing livestock for slaughter you'll find several packing plants in the vicinity. My daughter, who chose marriage and motherhood over college and career (much too early and over my protestations) and a friend landed jobs in one of them. They paid well for her experience and education level, the former non-existent and the latter of a HS variety - nine dollars and some change per hour. She got the chance to apply for the job due to an INS raid at the plant.

After two days of training and orientation and one week on "the line" she gave it up. Safety was abysmal and sanitation measures hardly any better. One of her coworkers was made to crawl hands and knees across a moving belt to get to her work station on the other side. Across a belt where raw meat being processed was enroute between stations. Such conditions existed because the plant was known for hiring almsot entirely illegals who didn't complain and would work for much less than the $9.75 they had to pay to hire legitimate workers.

So, if the argument is that illegals contribute by taking the jobs Americans won't, I'd have to agree. Jobs Americans won't put up with. And that's one thing. But when Americans won't take those legitimate jobs because we've bred American workers that are too greedy, or simply too fat and lazy to do an honest day's work for an honest day's wage, perhaps we need the come-uppance we're likely to get.

Ernie

cmolina, I am speaking as one who has been a victim of identity theft. Not only is it a pain in the behind, it is constantly in the back of your mind. It's like your sense of security has been violated. Every month when the bank statement, cc statement comes in I am anxious. It is an aspect of illegal immigration, people who have not been affected by tend to overlook & or downplay. I have no issues with people coming here to better themselves, I do have issue when it affects others lives. I too appreciate others views on this issue & agree that we need to enact/enforce & get control over illegal immigrants. Thanks for the link.

I'll agree with you that the use of other peoples ss# needs to be stopped. I do not advocate that practice. What I do believe is that with a better immigration law in place we could illiminate that practice in terms of immigration. We may disagree on the issue at hand but I am happy to see everyone's point of view.

Here's the link to the article I have been refering to:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedconte...

cmolina we could go back & forth on this all day. I guess it would be okay with you if your identity was stolen by some hard working illegal. Maybe you & those that feel the way you do will offer up your SS# so there will be no need for them to steal ours.

Thanks for the link Dig. It seems that the illegal workforce is enabling the corporations to keep the worksites unsafe & the jobs low paying.

The article I was refering to was more recent than this one, but this one addresses the work conditions and wages. Here are a few quotes from the article:"The price that's being paid in injury, in illness, is a price that most native-born workers are not willing to take, even at a good wage," says Lance Compa, a Cornell University expert in labor law and the meatpacking industry.Regulations for tallying injuries have loosened since President Bush took office. Injury counts have declined, as a result. But critics say that masks the full extent of problems inside the plants.Illegal workers often accept harsh conditions in exchange for a chance to stay in the U.S. Many won't report injuries out of fear that their immigration status could be discovered. I was only using this plant and the articles the Dallas Morning News reported on it as an example. The example I was trying to show is that there are some industries where the nature of work is a harsh and tough. That is just the nature of the work. That type of work is not for everyone, and because of that those jobs are being filled by many immigrants. I agree with the need to stop identity theft by immigrants using fake documents. However, my belief is if you want the identity theft made by immigrants to stop then we need a comprehensive immigration reform bill.

I never said that was a livable wage. I was simply showing that this pay was above minimum wage. Cactus, Tx is located in the Texas panhandle. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the region, but there is not much out there except cows and the small communities that support the ranches and processing plants. It would probably take two or more family members working there to be able to support a family. To me it seems that the problem at hand is a need for better paying jobs, an educated workforce and trade agreements which don't make it more profitable for companies to send their work oversees. Yet the hardworking immigrant is still being blamed for our problems.

cmolina is correct about that plant. I have heard about that. INS deported/detained all the workers & the way I heard it was every person who took the job after, not 1 lasted a whole day. They have imported the Burmese people in to do the jobs.

As far as identity theft goes, the average person who is having their identity stolen should not have to pay that price for lack of better immigration laws. That excuse does not justify or excuse the harm that has been caused to an innocent bystander. If you wanna come here illegally & not be bothered, then do no harm to others. We have no clue how badly our kids credit has been ruined as we do not think to run credit checks on them!

The plant I commented on in Cactus, Tx pays $12/hr. Well above minimum wage. The fact is these are hard jobs which your everyday American is not willing to take. The conditions are harsh. Some of these jobs could offer twice that amount and there still would not be a line of American workers to fill them. We as Americans have become spoiled and want the great paying job without the hard work or education. I work as a draftsman in the DFW area. Our company recently visited a steel fabrication company we do business with. This company ships 20-40 steel detailing positions oversees because they say there is a lack of an educated workforce here to do the job. They even bring the workers over here to train them and send them back to do the work. Those weren't jobs that someone who crossed the river was going to take. Those were jobs which Americans should be taking. As far as identity theft, this would not be an issue in regards to immigration if there was a comprehensive immigration bill in place.

I disagree Ash. If you have ever had your identity stolen you would not think labeling people who do such things as criminals as being harsh. It is a nightmare that never, ever ends as you cannot change your SS#. Every year come tax time it rears its ugly head and thats after months-years of getting everything sorted out & untold amounts of lost time & money. I have no issues with people wanting to come here & earn an honest living & to make a better life, what I have issues with is when they come here illegally & cause permanent harm to others in the process.

Again, criminal has nothing to do with race, color, etc. It has to do with violating a LAW. Entering this country improperly is violating immigration law, even if you have not been caught. If you violate the law, like lying to a federal grand jury, you are a criminal. After you get caught it depends mainly on you status in life, president, member of special interest group, regular worker, etc, and how rich you are if you get off, go to jail, pay a fine, etc..

It seems that my two sentence post wasn't even read. Often cited arguments against immigration are drug-trafficking, crime and the impact on our economy. My point was, Ernie, to highlight the fact that the only reason we have problems with drug trafficking is because Americans have created the market for it, plain and simple. The anecdotal evidence I was referring to were the website citations given in support of the "migrants contributions to crime, drug-trafficking, and economy". A few of the resources included the "American Policy Center" (founded by conservative Tom DeWeese to further his agendas inlcuding his belief that global warming is a hoax created for political agenda, the UN is a criminal enterprise, and that immigrants are an eminent threat to our property rights) and the Journal of American Physicians & Surgeons (despite its name is ABSOLUTELY not a respected medical journal or society, its claims include: the FDA is unconstitutional, HIV does not cause AIDS, there is a link between abortion and breast CA). The Center for Immigration Studies cited in the article is actually an offshoot of the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR). It's primary goal is to reduce immigration so any information or opinions given by this group should be taken with a grain of salt given this knowledge. Perhaps given this information one might seek more credible resources (college 101: bob's website and websites with an agenda are not legitimate resources) including our own comptroller. Keeton Strayhorn's 2006 analyses concluded that without immigrant workers, the state's gross product would have been $17.7 billion less. She also concluded that they contributed over $400 million to the state economy even accounting for the services they may have consumed (you actually have to read the entire article). Unmatched social security numbers includes both those stolen (yes it does happen) and those that are made up. If there were other alternatives this problem could be remedied. Simply labeling these people as criminals because they want to work is overzealous. I got a speeding ticket a few weeks ago, I broke the law (gasp) so I suppose I am now a criminal too? The negative connotation attached to "criminal" is typically reserved for crimes of the more violent/heinous type. My original goal was to make clear how ludicrous the first post was in hopes its "facts" would not persuade a naive reader. I hope that these immigrants are treated ethically and fairly in the policies that we will eventually have to enact. Their contribution to our economy is substantial and, quite frankly, I don't think it can handle much more disturbance.

Immigration is a touchy subject for me as a hispanic American. On one hand I was born and raised in Victoria as were generations of my family. On the other hand my wife is a first generation American who's dad crossed the border in a search of a better life for his family. I sympathise with her family and will fight for fare treatment of immigrants while at the same time understanding the need to fix the system. My wife is a high school graduate, soon to be college graduate. She comes from a good family who worked hard to make it in this country. Her father eventually became a legal resident and pays his taxes and does everything a good hardworking citizen should do. I do not see my father in-law or the many like him as criminals. I do see a need for a comprehensive immigration reform bill. One that provides for not only a secure border, but a reasonable worker program and a realistic and humane way to address the millions of undocumented immigrants in the country already. Throughout our history immigrants have helped to build and make this country into what it is today. They do the jobs that many Americans refuse to do. I know many people blame immigrants for taking jobs which they think should go to Americans. Well take this into consideration. The Dallas Morning News reported earlier last month on the aftermath of the raids at the Swift meat processing plant in Cactus, Tx last year. At the time more than 300 immigrants were arrested for being in the country without legal status and for identity theft. Today the plant is up and running with a new workforce. Not an American workforce. The workers are Burmese immigrants who were brought into the U.S. on special visas. The school problems and healthcare problems still remain. Even more so now that it is hard to find Burmese teachers especially since there are a number of dialects. I do not see any progress being made. Americans still are not filling those jobs, the schools and healthcare system are in worse shape, there are children without their parents from last years raid, and there is still no comprehensive immigration reform bill in place. Lets stop using immigrants as scapegoats to our problems and find real solutions.

Hmmm "no matches" means they don't match because they stole it from an American citizen. They don't file their taxes not only because they can be tracked but because they are paying under someone elses name. They are ruining the credit & lives of thousands of hard working people & we are expected to feel sorry for them. Yes Ash, every illegal worker here in the USA who is working under a false SS# is a criminal, technically every illegal person here in the USA is a criminal, but these that are stealing SS#'s actually have victims attached to their crime. Sorry, no sympathy here from me.

Good point, Ash, because we all know data collected by the National Research Agency stating that immigrants (both legal and illegal)without HS diplomas (which a large majority of first generation immigrants DON'T have) will cost American taxpayers an average of $89K over their working lives over and above any taxes they may pay in is slanted and biased. Oh, and that doesn't count the cost, calculated at around $108K more, to educate each child they bring with them or "anchor babies" they deliver while in the US.

So let's see, if we do the math, that's [ummm, 7 carry the 1], yep, mighty close to $200K per immigrant plus one child. Multiply that by what? maybe 3 million? Some say as many as 5 million? So let's put the figure somewhere around half a trillion good ol' US greenbacks. And remember, this is just the cost OVER AND ABOVE what they may or may not contribute.

Sounds good to me. Let's grow the poorest segment of the population illegally, compromise both our security and our safety (yes, some of them ARE crooks and perverts, some - not all), and you and I can shell out another half a trillion for the privilege. That's the humanitarian thing to do, right?

Sounds to me more another footpath on the sure road to annhiliation. But that's just me....

Ernie

Good one Frank, because we all know anecdotal evidence proves that all immigrants are really drug trafficking criminals who use our ERs before they cross the border to get more drugs. Some seem to forget the only reason drug trafficking is so lucrative is due to the high demand created by your teenager and neighbor, but I guess they don't like to talk about that on Fox news.

You forgot their role in drug trafficking:
http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/states/...
http://www.caller.com/news/2008/apr/1...

And their role in crime:
http://www.charlotte.com/breaking_new...
http://www.kvia.com/Global/story.asp?...
http://www.tribtown.com/news/pichiya_...
http://www.yumasun.com/news/border_41...
http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1...

And their role on the economy:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/art...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080502/a...
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immi...
http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/mexi...