"Virtual rape and murder." Come on kids, lets play!

Hello VBB,You stated: "Do you think this culture is going to turn back to Leave It To Beaver days? I would rather not live with my head in the sand. Is there too much sex & violence in our culture....yes. Not taking it personally is my way of dealing with it."
I agree, I can't live with my head in the sand either and pretend like games/music glorifying violence and degradation of women are good for or neutral in the formation of youngsters.  Why contribute to coarseness?
I think that 20 years from now we might look back and think these were the "Leave it to Beaver" days, especially the way the portrayals of violence and sexual acts keeps topping themselves every few years.
Just when you think you've seen it all, someone hits a new low.

Sailor, I just found a contradiction in what you were saying.

Primarily- you wouldn't show it to your hypothetical kid but you spent a lot of time defending the violent game for various reasons.

I respect the fact that you woudn't show it to your kid. I'll leave it at that.

As far as me taking things to the extreme with what you say, that's your opinion. I don't think it's extreme to point to a killer who said he was influenced by cop-killer rap.

Sure, he wasn't "made" to do it by the music, but it didn't actually discourage him either. Why promote or poo-poo something that tears down society?

BTW, I don't think it's extreme for OCL to point out that people have actually "parlayed" GTA into reality.

OCL,

I agree totally with your post to Sailor. I don't think that any one thing is a force either, but I do think that viewing this violence desensitizes children to it, and don't we have enough problems with family violence, violent sexual acts, etc.

I didn't know that the Armed Forces uses these games to train soldiers- makes sense.

VBB…you know I love you girl and we often think along the same lines…and I do think that you take being a great parent very seriously and I am sure that your children are great kids, but I would like to pass on one observation to you as one mom to another if you don’t mind. My kids are grown and have families of their own now and no matter how much you believe that you know your child, don’t be surprised to find it may not be as much as you thought you did. I have always found it interesting what my kids observations regarding their childhoods or lives sometimes make…things that I can’t even remember sometimes make a huge impact on them. Just hang in there…it all washes in the end…just keep on being the best parent you know how to be.

Luminary…thanks for the read…but I would like to point out a few quick things. They themselves say it needs further study. They studied 1,200 middle school kids over a couple of years…out of how many kids nation wide?? Was this a school in the posh part of the city…where honor students who attend church every Sunday with both parents or was it a school surrounded with fencing and guards in the hood with kids from broken homes or no homes, or both? That fact alone would make a huge difference in their findings. Also if you had read a bit further you would have found that they admitted that playing Rated M games by underage kids did yield a higher percentage of kids who were aggressive and more often than not had been involved in at least one fight. It doesn’t take the condescending remarks of two ivy league degree holders to inform the “simpler minded” rest of us what we already know from experience…what you feed the body…defines the body…and what you feed the mind…defines the soul. We can however thank these “experts” for the insight and superior knowledge that they have already bestowed upon us…like “never tell a child no…you’ll inhibit their growth,” and “everyone is a winner and should be rewarded the same…because they tried”…that way they will never feel like they are a failure. Yes and they will never find they are talented, special, or gifted either. I say we consider the number of violent criminal cases involving juveniles that are run through our court system on a daily basis nationwide, or the number of kids under age 18 that are presently housed in juvenile detention centers waiting for their 18th birthday so they can enter the already crowded penitentiaries. I bet that either figure would make this 1,200 seem pretty small indeed. Can we blame any one thing be it parents, the media, movies, music, or video games? No…but if we contribute enough of this type of stimulas in enough of them…we are contributing to this mind set. Ahhhh…Dr. Spock….man of answers….son committed suicide…go figure.

Sailor…I will stand with my opinions on this particular game…and if you play it for the “enjoyment and entertainment” of it…. a game that awards you points for killing the cops that you are so respectful of…and you don’t see a problem with feeding your mind by playing out “fantasy acts” that show such a disregard for life…even in a “fantasy world” then by all means get after it. I do find it interesting though…even with all of your vertebrata about Tokyo and other cultures that act on that which is “taboo” as being so much more civilized than American children …your speculation on what you would consider appropriate or not for your own “fantasy” child is somewhat surprising. Since you aren’t a parent, yet anyway…here is a little bit of the experience I have gained in my 28 years of parenting…children learn the most by example…it is what you do not what you say that they most emulate.
I never said that there was any one force…even this video game…that makes good children into little murdering thugs, and there are good parents out there that try as they might, still have children that turn out to be trouble and vice versa…but my question to you is why should society support those things which are focused on the dark side of life? Rock and Roll??? Pleeeeesssseeee…there is a huge difference between the two…especially the R&R of “way back then.” If just one kid takes a game like GTA and parlays it into reality…(which HAS happened more than once)…who do you think their victims families blame…and why? No not everyone who plays this game will take it to the next level…but for those who blur the lines and do…could we have made a difference if the thoughts and skills were not available to begin with?
BTW…the U.S. Armed Forces…do use video games like this to train their soldiers to do their job…wonder why??

Mary Ann…You spoke like a responsible parent and adult…You Go Girl!

And also I think blaming video games & music for killing someone is more offensive to the victims family members than the videos/music. If you have the balls to take someones life then have the balls to own up to it & accept your punishment without hiding behind some lame excuse. That would help the family deal & find closure.

there has been violence & sexual violence looonnngggg before rap music ever became popular. If I avoided everything that contained sexual violence I would have to stay in my home with no tv, music, contact with the rest of the world & you can throw church in there too.

Do you think this culture is going to turn back to Leave It To Beaver days? I would rather not live with my head in the sand. Is there too much sex & violence in our culture....yes. Not taking it personally is my way of dealing with it.

I won't make a joke out of people actually being killed in a situation, VBB.
Violent sexual images or violence against cops, women, etc. shouldn't be glorified or taken lightly.... even if they don't "make" someone kill or rape another person.
 
 

LOL...Yes Maryann I do & frequently! J/K. There is a time & a place for everything. My daughter was allowed freedom of musical expression around the age of 12. I didn't allow her to play it when her friends were over as the lyrics would be offensive to some. I know MY kid & I know what she can & cannot handle.

Do you recommend cop-killer rap to parents, then VBB?

Is it in the best interest of children to subject them to violence, especially sexual violence?

As far as music making people kill, the only time I am buying into that excuse is if the person is schizophrenic in the midst of active, audial hallucinations. Other than that it is no more than an excuse with the hope that some juror who hates the type of music they are blaming to let them off the hook.

I listen to all types of music & alot of it has been blamed for people doing stupid illogical things & yet I have never felt the need to kill anyone no matter how much Eminem, NWA, Metallica, Ozzy etc say it would be fun or necessary to do so (not that they really have per say but have all been blamed for peoples killing sprees). That would be like me blaming Depeche Mode for me committing suicide or more likely the proliferation of "boy bands" in the 90's (don't think I didn't consider suicide more attractive than listening to another contrived Back Street Boy song)!

Sailor, you're saying a lot of different things, and I'm reading what you got there.
 I realize that one can find studies to support a variety of points of view. Yet some studies are quite REAL to some people.
As far as "These complaints about video games ruining kids and making them into criminals is just the same old argument twisted to fit the current technology and popular trends," I think some of the "complaints" have merit.
The kid listening to cop-killer music who killed the highway patrolman Bill Davidson from Edna in the 1990s doesn't sit in jail as we discuss this, because he was executed by the state of Texas.
 The killer said the music made him do it. http://www.lubbockonline.com/stories/...
You can debate that, but the highway patrolman is still dead. I'm sure the wife and relatives of the man killed don't think that this discussion is "so silly."
If the danger is there for youth viewing this material, why take a chance? I and many parents do disagree with any type of studies from any country telling us that viewing violent, sexualized images is benign for our kids.
It's the viewing of these violent images as youth that help to create violent adults desensitized to violent sexual acts. As you pointed out, not all viewers become offenders, but why do we even think twice about putting children in harm's way?
The topic of this thread is "Grand theft MAY be stealing your CHILDREN" emphasis mine.As an adult if you want to view this, it's another topic, IMO.

Sailor, very interesting facts on what goes on in Japan.

You state that if you had kids of your own you wouldn't let them play these games, yet according to your Japanese info. it wouldn't be harmful viewing it.

In my opinion, all things considered, I would not show them to my kids or let them play them. To me, it's asking for trouble, especially in American society.

I'm curious, why wouldn't you let your own kids play these games if in Japan kids read violent sex magazines and they seem to have fewer problems with rape than we do in America?

Are there other cultural factors that come in to play?

Interesting thoughts have been shared here. Don’t get me wrong, like I said before…I was a fairly liberal parent…most certainly by the standards of many parents that I have come in contact with through my years of working with kids and families. While I have always respected parents who are more sheltering in the raising of their children, I have not followed the same philosophy with mine. I agree with you JMWhite…I also raised my children so that they would be prepared to take on the things that the world can throw their way…innocence is not always bliss, in today’s world it can be dangerous and ignorance can be deadly. Grand Theft Auto...contains NOTHING BUT the things that one would find in the worst and lowest happenings of any society. We have had in our home at different times everything from the old Atari Pong (Remember that??) to Genesis, PSII, N64, and Xbox…and I love to play just like the kids did. Besides Mario Brothers and Yoshi….we also had martial arts games and others that did have their share of blood and guts.

Grand Theft Auto and a few others like it are taking things way…way…way…over the line. Forget the “Christian” or “conservative” point of views on this particular game…any descent human being with common sense and a smidgen of respect for life…would not only make sure that this game was not among their child’s video library…but they would also not play it themselves nor spend their hard earned money on funding a company who would put a game like this on the market…allowing them to line their pockets with even a make believe world of murder, sex, theft, and violence. Parents should have to watch just 5 minutes of this game in action before they are allowed to purchase it…period…I have a hunch sales wouldn’t be worthy of national news praise. As a society claiming to be civilized…we should be ashamed that this particular game is even allowed to be marketed.

I am really not much into video games but both my sons and my husband are. My youngest son and husband play "war games" or car racing games. It's something they enjoy doing together and are always trying to beat each other's scores. We have a PS2 and an XBox360.

Several years ago, when my youngest was about 5 or 6, the 2nd version of GTA had come out. It was my nephew's birthday and he had asked for that game. So my little boy and I are in Wal-Mart buying the game, and I get a lecture from the sales person about what a terrible mom I was for buying my son that game....I told him to mind his own business and refuse to buy games at Walmart anymore.... Any Who... flash forward to GTA4.... We won't be making that purchase. My son has chosen to save his money for a game that is coming out next week based on another common interest with his dad, their favorite tv show: DEADLIEST CATCH-Alaskan Storm!

Most of what I've seen on the games like that is crazy. I haven't actually seen this new one, but I've watched ex's play the previous versions. The problem is, for some reason, lack of common sense seems to be coming in very large quantities these days, in people of all ages. Which in turn leads to that blurred line between reality and game.

Like I said previously, I watch and play a lot in front of my 3 year old that some people find innapropriate. But, it's stuff that's out there that I refuse to shelter her from because one day she'd see it anyway and then I would have less opportunity to influence her view on it or teach her right/wrong, reality/media. I won't play these games because I don't like them, but I'm also not going to stop some 30 year old from playing or buying it for their kid.

I guess I don't take the game literally. I never allowed my daughter growing up to play video games, we never owned any kind of gaming system. Now that she is an adult we have a PS2 & we do have the GTA games. My daughter plays them as does my husband. I am not coordinated enough to play very well but I enjoy watching for a few minutes & like the soundtracks they have. GTA, like rap music, I find amusing. I don't take their content seriously, more tongue in cheek. I guess I am odd or just naive into thinking people really don't do those things (though I know they do). I guess I understand there is a seperation between entertainment & reality & I need to understand that many others do not.

But seriously, who would beat up a hooker with a "B.O.B."? Thats just too crazy!

BTW..Redrage...can't hang with you here. I understand where you are coming from...I am familiar with the blood and guts games that you are talking about...and understand where you are coming from...but as technology progresses to a more realistic look and feel...and the reality of violence that is flashed across our nightly news of such things being played out in real life...it is obvious that the lines between the two are increasingly becoming more and more blurred. If we don't pay attention to the realities of the violence involving today's youth...we are setting ourselves up for a quite scary future indeed.

I am and have been a fairly liberal parent when it came to raising my kids. I did not so closely monitor my children to the point that they would have no clue as to what was out there in the world both waiting for them in the positive or that which would be ready to prey on them in the negative. I do agree that parents do need to know what their kids are into and what they are up to...and that parents, both single and couples, should take a very hands on approach in teaching our children what is right and what is wrong in the eyes of our creator, acceptable and not in our society, legal and unlawful under the laws of our nation. That said...the facts are that not all kids have the good fortune to have parents who exercise the responsibilities of being a good parent(s), and no matter how many of us would like for it to be different because it should be...doesn't make it a reality. Our prisons, juvenile detention centers, and nightly newscasts are full and running over with proof of this fact. So my question is who is responsible when parents don't step up to the plate, and where do we start as a society in changing the overwhelming flood of kids with felonies that is growing in numbers literally by the day in our nation and in our society?
I am not someone who is easy to give into censorship of any kind in this nation...but the things that are so easy nowdays for our children to tap into and get their hands on in todays technological world of wonders...directly reflect the rapidly decreasing morals in today's society that has been allowed to exist under the "freedom of expression" guarenteed by the constitution. What we are forgetting is that exercising our freedoms without responsibility compromise our other freedoms and the freedoms of all in our society.
I do think that the media, film makers, song writers, website creators, and yes...video game companies...should shoulder their share of the blame in what they create, produce, and sell to the public...especially when it is geared to appeal to kids. Why? Because it is a fact that there is an astronomical number of kids out there that will come in contact or be influenced by the materials and products that they put out...to make a buck. We as a society should have a say in how far is too far...but then it is all too easy to blame "the slacker parents" alone, especially if you like what your playing or watching...huh. I'm sure the NASTY Girls Gone Wild videos that are run 20X's per hour on some stations after 10 pm turn on a lot of fellows out there...that is until your daughter's face flashes up on the screen...then it is a different ball game. Grand Theft Auto Games, all of them, are compiled of everything that the people doing time on our dime...have done in real life. I believe that it is a game that doesn't need to be on the market period, and I also believe that the game industry and those twisted and deviant minds that created it hold even more of the blame, right along with those irresponsible parents who allow their kids to play it, and those blissfully ignorant parents who don't know any better. Grand Theft Auto is not a game suited for anyone, child or adult. If the adults who "know the difference between fantasy and reality" like it so much...you gotta ask yourself...what kind of person wants to fanaticize about rape, theft, and murder for entertainment? If one person can give me just one point to this game that isn't violent and evil....then....I'll be glad to rethink my position. Good Luck.

RR....that last line was classic! Love it...too true!!!!!

This has got to be some of the most ridiculous crap I've ever read. Responsibilty first falls on the individual who buys the game, and if this individual is under the age of let's say 15, then that responsibility falls on the guardian or parent. Don't blame the game maker just because you or your idiot of a child is a hiderance on society, blame yourself.

First off, I'd like to say that I don't like the Grand Theft Auto games and don't buy them. Now that that's been said, I have to disagree with some of what you said, thinksalot. I am part of that single parent group you mentioned, and while I do watch and play a lot of things with my 3 year old around, there are limitations. (And by the way, sometimes relationships just don't work out. We're not all flippant about commitment.) But we also don't always have complete control over what our children do or get ahold of. I remember as a preteen and teen getting ahold of movies or games my mom might not have wanted me to see without her knowing. Kids test things and push boundaries, it's how they learn. So, while I would never buy that game for my child now or in the future, who's to say she won't defy me and find a way around?

Also, some of the game's popularity is with the older crowd. In fact, I know more people above the age of 17 that know about it and play it than I do people younger. I also know other parents that play it, knowing the difference between game and reality, but never play in front of their children or allow their children to play.

It's unfortunate that games with such blatant disrespect for authority figures and other people are on the market, but that's how it is. Unless we can find a way as parents to control our children in every moment of every day, sometimes they're just going to get their hands on things we don't like. And I personally would not want to control her every move like a puppet. How else will she learn?

Get real. If parents did what they are supposed to do, this game wouldn't be so successful in the first place. And I don't think we can rely on the current generation of neglected children to become a new generation of responsible adults either. Take a looks sometime at the birth announcements in your own paper and note the proportion of children born to single and unwed parents. When the parents have little or no commitment to one another, it should not be surprising to find junior neglected as well. And when parents are absent, violent video games serve nicely as alternate role models.