BACK2REALITY: Yes, yes, and yes = ALL VERY GOOD and VALID statements!!!!
I appreciate YOU taking the time to shed light on these factors as we await the outcome of the PRESUMED  innocent-do-gooders ("presumed innocent until proven guilty").

Back2Reality, I believe we're in agreement on just about all your points.

It's my opinion that Tyler did NOT do his job wisely or well and may be in violation of some statutory requirements. That remains to be seen.

I further am inclined to believe Ure, Smith, Buentello et. al. did what they did with an honest belief they were attempting to see justice done and whether by design or oversight, got into a compromising situation. The charges levelled against them include a requirement of "with intent to harm" or "for personal gain." I can see neither of these conditions being met or proven. The one holdout in the charges as I see them is the count of perjury. The conditions *appear* clear cut although I wasn't among the Grand Jurors who actually heard them deny meeting with the VA reporter. I can't simply deny their having any culpability for lying under oath. In a lawful society that premise has to be held inviolate if the law is to have any hope of administering justice. On the other hand, altruism can sometimes underlie a transgression of the law (for example, I was speeding because I have a seriously injured person in the back seat needing to get to the emergency room.) and is why judges are allowed a certain amount of latitude in pronouncing sentences.

I believe Tyler's indictments and timing of them ARE nothing more than a lawyer's sleight of hand and misdirection to deflect some of the heat he's feeling elsewhere.

I think dig, while he seems to lean to the other side of this issue, has a very sane and valid point: We *don't* know all the facts and no one has as yet confessed, been tried nor found guilty. Until such time as any of those become history we're free to argue our takes on the matter but this presumption of guilt OR innocence - on BOTH sides - needs to stop. Only the appointed juries will have the benefit of hearing all the testimony and seeing all the evidence and to render a *verdict*. Until then, all this arguing is only supposition.

Make your cases if you want but allow for the fact that you nor the other side know all there is to know.

Ernie

Hopefully the hard working honest policeman at VPD (and yes there are some) will be able to continue doing their jobs regardless of the recent chain of events.  BacktoReality, unfortunately you have "misstated" facts. A chief of staff is not the second person in charge at the DA's office. And as others have pointed out, the Tyler bashers (and now Grand Jury bashers) can't have it both ways. Pick a side and stick with it!

LUMINARY.....are you getting soft hearted or just disenlightened? Did someone or something burst your bubble????

to back2reality....finally someone else understands and knows what is going on with this case. I was beginning to think that no one else really understands and wants to believe the facts, that this has been going on for a very long time. I see the whole Ratcliff case as being "swept under the rug" and sooner or later people will forget about this case. It's time for people to realize what is and what has been happening in this town. We need to support the "men in blue". We do have some excellent police officers in Victoria, I just hope this doesn't turn alot of people away from becoming "good" officers. We need all the help in Victoria that we can get.

Shurlee, it is impossible to address any of your accusations because you never read the answer completely anyway; you twist everything I say to fit your meaning; you pick and choose what you want to address....you are impossible. Most of what you say makes no sense whatsoever. I will give you this... you are passionate and you and I are passionate about some of the same things...the military for one.

Please I choose not to respond to any more of your silliness.

You know it seems that everyone seems to be losing site of something. Most of you only see that it's police officers and jump on the bandwagon of the "dirty cops" theory, because you have seen so many news stories about them and you don't hear about the millions of police officers that do right every day. These officers were trying to do the right thing, or did everyone just seem to forget that. People are patting Tyler on the back about how he's showing "no one is above the law." That's not what it's about, he's trying to show no one is above HIM!!. These officers knew that Ratcliff was accused of a sick crime and they also knew it was being covered up and they did what they did to bring it into the light of day. Seems to me that they are the ones who think no one is above the law. Tyler had Ratcliff as Chief of Staff (That's second in command for those who don't know!!!!!!) Tyler knew of the investigation, knew of the charges and had him in that office. When it was brought to the light of day Tyler started telling the paper that he was "Keeping an eye on him". For What!!! He was accused of a sexual crime so unless Tyler thought he was going to suddenly ravage an ADA, exactly what was he keeping an eye on. Then he said that Ratcliff did not have access to cases. Maybe it's just me, but that office can't be that big. He was 2nd in command. That's like saying the Culligan man is in charge of the water, but he doesn't have access to it.

From what i've seen Chief Ure and the others tried to do the right thing for the right reasons. They had a choice between what was right and what was easy and they chose right. Speaking as a citizen of Victoria, that is the type of officer I want on my side.

From what I understand Tyler needs to prove that they did these actions with intent to Harm, defraud, supress, or otherwise royally mess up an investigation. It seems to me that they did none of those things and instead brought it out where it should be.

Finally, is it just me or does it seem to anyone else that him bringing these indictiments, just before Ratcliff is supposed to go back to court seem a little too coincidental. Tyler got caught helping to dig the grave to throw all the skeletons from the closet in and he's mad. This is a personal vendetta from someone that seems to me is a power intoxicated politician who really needs some medication, and I counsel mentally unstable people, trust me I know the signs.

there is no "American system of justice." It is an American legal system, not a justice system. If you doubt it, ask anyone who has been a courtroom lately if they feel like they achieved "justice."

 
southtexas,
You said>"Shurlee I don't know why I bother answering your posts other than what you post replying to me usually does more to rally support for my side of the argument...thanks."<
HOWEVER, you couldn't seem to bring yourself to address what I said in my last post - nice dodge!!!Looks like you and dig have learned the same technique.

Oh mercy, dig,

Excuse me! (>"if you wish to continue discrediting the American system of justice you will continue to slip and slide in the court of public and the State of Texas' opinion."<

When did I say anything to discredit thr American systenm of justice - some examples please.

AND BY THE WAY..... you seemed to have DODGED the point I made about YOUR defintions of "criminal" and "confessions"

Care to enlighten us somewhat? Have care though, everyone can see what you said earlier, or do you just want to turn to something else in order to "muddy the waters"?

Shurlee I don't know why I bother answering your posts other than what you post replying to me usually does more to rally support for my side of the argument...thanks.

Oh dear, oh dear,

I’m immature according to southtexas

First he tells the “puke ‘story and says >"And last....I have posted on here several times that I have nothing but admiration and respect for the cop on the beat....both Sheriff's department and Police Department.””I DID NOT REALIZE THAT THE PEOPLE SUPPORTING HIM AND STANDING OUT ON THE STREET DOING NOTHING HAD JUST WALKED OVER FROM THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND WERE SUPPOSED TO BE ON THE JOB.

Hey guys, if you want to support your co-worker, more power to you, but don't do it on my dollar. Can you believe....from watching the film, everyone in the police department from officers to secretaries just left their post and walked over to the sheriff's department. I truly can't believe it.””And urbanangel.....just how do you KNOW that every single person was off the clock? Because they said....yeah right. And even if that is true, which I sincerely doubt, the fact that they all gathered at the police department disrupting work should have been stopped .””.....since you , as usual, only see what you want to see, only read what you wanta read and only think what you wanta think....
By the way.....do you happen to watch Boston Legal.”<

Problem is, he can’t seem to see or remember what he posted. I NOW realize why he has so much legal knowledge…. he’s a fan of Boston legal!

Shurlee, do you realize how hilariously immature you are? No comment on my compliments for our policeman on the beat?....just some other garbage about what you think I would do &quot;if&quot;.&nbsp; You have no idea what I would do under any circumstances, since you do not know me and have never met me and I just as soon keep it that way.

By the way.....do you happen to watch Boston Legal. There is an attorney on there whose favorite saying is &quot;You're a hoot&quot;...he is unbelievably similar to you in numerous others ways also. If you don't watch it, ask someone....they'll tell you about the &quot;You're a hoot&quot; attorney.

Dig has an interesting choice of words in his rant:

>”No, now we DON'T KNOW just how far these indicted criminals go. What we DO KNOW is they WILL break the law to get what they want the way they want it and the City of Victoria will back them even when their confessions of guilt lead to indictments. These criminals have put our officers in a position of distrust.””I would be willing to bet, if the policeman on the beat was polled and was not afraid to answer honestly, many might in fact agree with me about their bosses."<

Talk about a setup, if every VPD officer posted a statement on this forum and signed their names that they like and/or support their boss, I’D be willing to bet that the first words out of your mouth would be that they were coerced to say that for fear of retaliation. I’ve said it before – southtexas, you are a real hoot!

Shurlee....it is obvious that you did not read my previous post about my stand on the policemen on the beat.....since you , as usual, only see what you want to see, only read what you wanta read and only think what you wanta think....I will repost what I said about Victoria policemen. You probably won't read it but here goes, just in case:

"And last....I have posted on here several times that I have nothing but admiration and respect for the cop on the beat....both Sheriff's department and Police Department.

I even told a story of several years ago driving down a main street here in town at 5am in the morning and seeing a police car pulled over to the side with a half naked man, obviously falling down drunk, hanging on the door of the police car while the policeman watched him puke his guts up on the street. Traffic was slow as everyone creeped by the disgusting scene and just as I was about to pass the drunk purposely spit a mouthful of vomit on the policeman. The cop kept his cool, firmly turned the man's head away....but did not in any way do anything excessive. I stated that I did not know if I could have handled the situation so well. And at that moment....I thought to myself...."Damn what a Cop!....give that guy a raise!"

Having worked in healthcare and seen the people brought into the E.R. by police officers, and knowing the abuse those police officers have taken before they ever arrived in our E.R. has given me nothing but the utmost of respect and admiration for those guys who serve us every day on the streets and gutters of this town. And what alway got me....I very seldom saw anger....it was part of their job....they would take the most disgusting behavior from the percs they arrested and not complain once...even laugh about it.

That does not mean that the leadership of law enforcement in this town is above reproach. I feel L.E. leadership here both in the Police Department and the Sheriff's department royally sucks. It is not the cops, it is the guys in charge. Of course there are always a few slightly tainted apples in any barrel, but for the most part, I think our policemen are doing a great job.

Where do you people get off thinking that just because I happen to believe a Fire Chief who was fired from his previous job for,in essence, stealing and then hired as police chief here, immediately getting himself involved in matters which did not even involve him and committing perjury is a less than poor choice for the job and should be arrested means that I do not support law enforcement as a whole.

I would be willing to bet, if the policeman on the beat was polled and was not afraid to answer honestly, many might in fact agree with me about their bosses."

Sailor states that the Grand Jury is controlled by the one sided evidence presented by the DA (my paraphrasing). I have posed this question before&nbsp;(to Rado) and got no response. Perhaps Sailor will reply.
Sailor, assuming your premise is correct, then the only way Ratcliff was indicted was that Tyler presented enough one-sided evidence to&nbsp;the Grand Juryto have them&nbsp;indict him. How does that comport with your accusation that Tyler is trying to help Ratcliff? The two arguments are diametrically opposed to each other.
Also, Sailor, assume for a moment that the accusations against Ure and the others are found to be true (I am not saying they will be, I only ask you to hypothesize). What would your response/reaction be to that?

&nbsp;
As usual southtexas, you miss the point completely in your haste to bash ALL the police officers.

&gt;&rdquo;Shurlee get off your high horse....I have seen you repost things multiple times. As a matter of fact you just did it on this thread.&rdquo;&lt;

Pay attention now, I encouraged dig to repeat this particular piece of garbage on all the threads on this forum whether it has anything to do with the topic or not so EVERYONE could see what he is insinuating.

Dig said in part&hellip;.
&gt;&rdquo;If you don't join my acts of defiance against the law I and my brothers just may not show up in your hour of need, or we may falsely testify against you. We support business as usual and if you try to disrupt what we have been doing and intend to continue doing you will pay the price.&rdquo;&lt;

Read it carefully, southtexas. He&rsquo;s suggesting that if someone doesn&rsquo;t defend (or even disagrees) with them, they won&rsquo;t show up when called in a time of need. Or that they would falsely testify against a citizen.

Those are sick, sorry remarks that are over the top! The sad thing is, you and dig both KNOW, that even if VPD knew your true identities, if you needed to make a 911 call, they would respond the same way as they would for any other citizen.

I can understand you taking a stand of this issue, as to who you believe is right and who is wrong, but these remarks unfairly generalize about a large number of the force with no validity and is a below the belt, cheap shot.

Shame on you both!

Unless the city council knows something we (I) don't, I have to agree with Hagen. However misguided these indictments may be, the city has the same duty to prevent the *appearance* of impropriety as does the DA. The DA failed to fulfill that duty when he blatantly refused to recuse himself from the Ratcliff case but this simply is not a tit-for-tat situation.

Those indicted should be placed on paid leaves until the mess is straightened out. Now I don't like wasting taxpayer (my) dollars any more than the next guy and I know replacing all these officials with interims will cost the city a pretty penny. But if the city is to maintain even the appearance of integrity in government, I see no other choice. The council should quite simply be above the shenanigans of "he started it!"

A little maturity over at city hall would be nice...

Ernie

and it certainly wouldn't hurt around here at times either!

Shurlee get off your high horse....I have seen you repost things multiple times.&nbsp; As a matter of fact you just did it on this thread.

Sailor....you have finally gone over the edge. The City of Victoria should sue the D.A. for presenting a case to the Grand Jury when an indictment was received? I've got a better idea....let's sue every citizen on the Grand Jury also....they must be in on the plot also.

Wow dig,

This is the second or third time you’ve posted this. You need to repeat this little mantra on every thread on the forum, so that no one misses this vicious little piece of garbage - seems to me that you said you respected all the cops except the leadership. Looks like you just libeled the 60 or so members of the VPD, insinuating that since they showed public support for fellow officers they will lie, present false testimony, and get even with those who don’t support them. I’d have expected something like that from southtexasguy, but that’s pretty low - even for you.

My$.02: Well stated. The idea that "you have to be stupid" is an insult and part of the problem with our system. The selfish idea that it is "too much trouble" speaks volumes about our society.

But then again, a poster who can't string together a coherant thought in writing is not likely to have attended college sucessfully either.

&nbsp;
And oh my, the story about the STD case that so conveniently parallels his theory about VPD not wanting to give up the originals....
If Tyler were concerned about changes being made to the original, I'm sure that the police would have let one of his assistants read the originals and then watch as copies were made. Sounds like another southtexas conspiracy theory.
The point was made earlier, that Tyler wanted the originals while Ratcliff (1) still under investigation and (2) Ratcliff was still working for him. Somehow, southtexas can't seem to understand that the VPD would be concerned that something might &quot;happen&quot; to the originals. I mean they had every reason to believe that Tyler was an upstanding guy, right?
Southtexas, you truly are a hoot!!&nbsp;

Here is Monday and southtexas is STILL going on and on and on, nattering about the police showing support on their timeoff like a broken record. Starting to sound like cyber stalking to me…

>”And urbanangel.....just how do you KNOW that every single person was off the clock? Because they said....yeah right. And even if that is true, which I sincerely doubt, the fact that they all gathered at the police department disrupting work should have been stopped.””If southtexas is certain sure that these men and women were stealing from the taxpaying public by marching of City time then it must be so – in spite of what those who marched had to say – right? Maybe Tyler shared some inside information with him. Yep! It’s gotta be a vast conspiracy, but by Jimminy, count on southtexas to make sure that the public knows the terrible truth ( as he sees it –LOL)

I'm sure that with southtexas' encouragement that Tyler will issue more indictments against all those cheaters who had the gall to publically support their own – based on hourly wages, it must at least be a misdemeanor. Maybe Tyler will take him on board as a volunteer junior investigator.”<

Podunk: Please read your third paragraph. Who in the blazes can tell what you mean? Change your major to English, did you?

Nah, I don't buy the STD story. Anyhow, it could be the other way around too. Maybe Tyler wanted to "change" something on the papers. Looks to me like he'd have more to gain by altering the papers or making them "dissapear" than the PD guys would. What would they have done w/ the papers that would benefit them? I don't know, but I look at it from both sides. Hey, I thought the DPS guys handed over the case to the PD, so how is it that the PD stuck their noses where they didn't belong if the case was given to them by DPS? Somebody explain that to me. Really, cuz I've read that several times in the posts and I wonder. Did DPS really hand the case down to the PD? If so, I don't see what the police guys did wrong if their job was to investigate the case. Isn't that what they're supposed to do? Hey, what was the mayor's part in all this?

I don't blame him for wanting the originals and not the copies.....

I am reminded of a law case I was once involved with....in my college days I worked for an attorney. This was many years ago and in a totally different part of Texas so telling the story is not going to breach anything. A woman was suing her physician because he had treated her for a STD without her knowledge. It seems the lady's husband had notified her physician that he was infected and talked to the doc about treating his wife without the husband having to reveal his indiscretions. The doctor had complied....however the husband had bragged of his innovative action to friends and the word got back to his wife. The wife, though angry was smart....she made up a story about insurance problems, went to her doctor's office and obtained her medical records while she waited....no chance for the Dr. to change anything. Sure enough the Dr. had documented her treatment for the STD. After she had the record in her hand she confronted her husband who denied it all and then filed suit. When the suit was filed, her attorney received a copy of the medical record, there was no mention of any treatement for a STD.....the attorney requested the original record but was told that could not be given. However.....he had a copy that was from the unaltered original that his client had obtained. In court.....the woman's attorney presented both "copies"....and asked for the physician to explain the difference in the two copies. Why did one mention the treatment and the other did not though the rest of the record was the same? The judge demanded to see the original record and it had obviously been altered. Hard to cover up an alteration on the original.

Does that answer your question?

Onslow: I missed the TV news on this. I suppose we should take the high school kids word for it.lol

BINGO!!! LIKE BLUESKIES SAID: "He wanted investigators to hand over original documents (evidence in Ratcliff case) to his office when the accused was still working as his Chief of Staff!!! Because of the serious conflict of interest in this case, given Ratcliff and Tyler’s buddy-buddy relationship, PD staff did what they believed was right and protected the integrity of the investigation as best they could… their only crime is ticking off Tyler by not complying with his tyrannical demands. Why was Tyler after the originals? He could have easily worked off copies while the originals were kept at the PD."

WHAT DO U THINK ABOUT THAT SOUTHTEXAS? MAKES SENSE TO ME. HMM. SO THIS IS HOW IT ALL STARTED.....

NO, SOUTHTEXAS, I'M NOT BASHING U. JUST WANNA C WHAT U HAVE 2 SAY ABOUT THAT! DID U KNOW THIS WAS ALL ABOUT TYLER WANTING THE ORIGINALS AND NOT COPIES? MAKES U WONDER, DON'T IT? :) BY THE WAY, HOW TRUE IS THAT?

blueskies...I agree with your post wholeheartedly.

Bighorn: It is the same Grand Jury that indicted Ratcliff. News 25 stated so in its coverage.

SoTex: At six months, this would be a different group of folks from the Ratcliff deal. I served on the Grand Jury about ten years ago, in Comal County. The term for serving was 3 months. It generally consisted of hearing 12-15 cases over the course of one day. Not too bad actually.

And I must add this comment....There are so many people shouting to call the Attorney General. I truly have a feeling that if the Attorney General did take a look at this mess, the indictments would be upheld.

First he would never go against the decision of a Grand Jury unless it could be proven that the Grand Jury was tainted in some way. Are all you people saying that our present Grand Jury is made up of people paid off by the D.A. or in some other way compromised?

Be careful what you wish for.....if you get the Attorney General involved, there may be more indictments coming out of the law enforcement woodwork.

And last....I have posted on here several time that I have nothing but admiration and respect for the cop on the beat....both Sheriff's department and Police Department.

I even told a story of several years ago driving down a main street here in town at 5am in the morning and seeing a police car pulled over to the side with a half naked man, obviously falling down drunk, hanging on the door of the police car while the policeman watched him puke his guts up on the street. Traffic was slow as everyone creeped by the disgusting scene and just as I was about to pass the drunk purposely spit a mouthful of vomit on the policeman. The cop kept his cool, firmly turned the man's head away....but did not in any way do anything excessive. I stated that I did not know if I could have handled the situation so well. And at that moment....I thought to myself...."Damn what a Cop!....give that guy a raise!"

Having worked in healthcare and seen the people brought into the E.R. by police officers, and knowing the abuse those police officers have taken before they ever arrived in our E.R. has given me nothing but the utmost of respect and admiration for those guys who serve us every day on the streets and gutters of this town. And what alway got me....I very seldom saw anger....it was part of their job....they would take the most disgusting behavior from the percs they arrested and not complain once...even laugh about it.

That does not mean that the leadership of law enforcement in this town is above reproach. I feel L.E. leadership here both in the Police Department and the Sheriff's department royally sucks. It is not the cops, it is the guys in charge. Of course there are always a few slightly tainted apples in any barrel, but for the most part, I think our policemen are doing a great job.

Where do you people get off thinking that just because I happen to believe a Fire Chief who was fired from his previous job for,in essence, stealing and then hired as police chief here, immediately getting himself involved in matters which did not even involve him and committing perjury is a less than poor choice for the job and should be arrested means that I do not support law enforcement as a whole.

I would be willing to bet, if the policeman on the beat was polled and was not afraid to answer honestly, many might in fact agree with me about their bosses.

I served on a Grand Jury once but it was probably 20 years ago.....I thought we served a term of about 6 months. It might have just seemed that long.&nbsp; Serving on a Grand Jury is not much fun.&nbsp; However I looked it up and found this:
&quot;When twelve qualified jurors are found to be present, the court impanels them as a grand jury, with one juror appointed foreman. Before the grand jury has been impaneled, however, any person may challenge the entire jury or anyone presented as a grand juror. The term of the grand jury is the same as that of the district court that organized it, with some provision for extension at the judge's discretion.&quot;
It appears that the term of any Grand Jury is variable, and I suppose there is a possibility that those serving are the same as those who indicted our Sheriff, however I would think that doubtful.
However the point is that these indictments were brought forth by a jury of one's peers....not just the D.A. There are a group of citizens just like you and me who feel there is enough evidence for an indictment of these people.
This is just as the grand jury felt there was enough evidence to indict the Sheriff. However, in that case, the fact that the charges were so disturbing and that he was in such a position of power would have been ample to result in an indictment, no matter the extent or quality of evidence.

No....I don't know if it is the same members....I thought they serve a 6 month term, but am not certain. But Grand Juries are made up of citizens....and what I am saying is the same entity.....a grand jury made up of voting citizens....not just the D.A. was the one to find enough evidence for the indictment.

And urbanangel.....just how do you KNOW that every single person was off the clock? Because they said....yeah right. And even if that is true, which I sincerely doubt, the fact that they all gathered at the police department disrupting work should have been stopped.

SoTex: Are you telling us that the same members of the Grand Jury have been serving since last fall?

Yes Strawberry it was the same Grand Jury that indicted Sheriff Ratcliff. I challenge you to find anywhere in any of my posts where I challenged the Grand Jury's indictment in that case. What I challenge is people who deem the Sheriff tried and guilty before the trial has taken place.

However when it comes to the recent indictments......there is no mention of the fact that the Grand Jury had anything to do with the indictment....it is all the D.A. overstepping his bounds and ramrodding the case.

southtexas, please inform yourself before making ignorant statements. employees from the VPD were off the clock the minute they walked out of the department until the time they returned back to work.

And just a heads up, they pay the same taxes you do. They have just as much right to take a couple hours of vacation time as you do. Their department approved it.

If someone in YOUR family was going through a similar situation, you may have been inclined to do the same.

to SOUTHTEXAS....was it the same grand jury that felt there was substantial evidence to indict Ratcliff? Evidently there was enough evidence right?????

Steve Tyler is doing his job by presenting cases to the Grand Jury.......Is anyone saying the Grand Jury is stepping out of their bounds? The Grand Jury is we the people and they feel that the charges made are substantial enough for an indictment. What part of these people broke the law do some of you NOT understand.

Steve Tyler has ABSOLUTELY overstepped his bounds AND District Judges Williams, Cheshire, Koetter and Kelly could STOP this fiasco NOW just by calling on the Attorney General !!

Has Stephen Tyler overstepped his bounds?
Discuss at:&nbsp; www.victoriapublic.com

southtexas: Once again you show your ignorance. There was not a single person at the SO showing support, that was on the clock. Every single person there did that on their own time. Most people came on their day off to stand as one for the department. And yes, there were some that were on duty that day...but they used their UNPAID lunch break for that time. You are obviously one of the fine citizens that likes to tell officers things like &quot;I pay your salary&quot;. Well I can guarantee you that each one of them would gladly give you the $00.25 of the taxes that goes toward their salary. And like I said before, you can always open up the phone book and call on the security companies to come help you when you need it. I've read these comments for months now. I WILL NOT remain quite any longer. If you have comments... thats fine, but be advised, if they are false and unwarranted... and especially an attack on the officers of this city... you can expect to hear from me. I do not know if the accusations against the officials or true or false. What I do know however, is that our officers deserve better than your uninformed, inaccurate, and unfounded remarks.

Let the D.A. do his job along with the Grand Jury. My vote is for David Hagan for MAYOR! I don't know Mr. Hagan, if only the others on the counsel had the BACKBONE THIS MAN HAS TO STAND UP FOR THE TAX PAYING CITIZENS!

I just watched the video of the Mayor and Buentello being picked up and taken to the Sheriff's department....I suppose to be arrested and then released on bond.
I read the stories and posts about the support Buentello had....friends coming to stand outside while he was being processed through the legal system.
I DID NOT REALIZE THAT THE PEOPLE SUPPORTING HIM AND STANDING OUT ON THE STREET DOING NOTHING HAD JUST WALKED OVER FROM THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND WERE SUPPOSED TO BE ON THE JOB.
Hey guys, if you want to support your co-worker, more power to you, but don't do it on my dollar. Can you believe....from watching the film, everyone in the police department from officers to secretaries just left their post and walked over to the sheriff's department. I truly can't believe it.

I agree with kojba. A grand jury arrived at those indictments based on evidence presented. That should be enough to warrant placing the "suspects" on administrative leave. As long as they are still on active duty they may be able to tamper with evidence (which is what they are accused of doing anyway).

I guess comon sense will not be tolerated on city council levels. If you don't want suspicion hanging over your head, why would you need a closed door meeting to discuss the buisness of the community. I must be under the delusion that City buisness is the buisness of EVERY citizen. It seems as though we only have one council member who is not afraid of his/her record. David Hagan is to be commended for his willingness to be open when discussing the buisness of the citizens in Victoria. Doesn't the God complex the rest of the council demonstrates bother anybody else? As for the Grand Jury indictments, the last time I checked a Grand Jury indictment was only handed down if there was sufficient evidence to warrant it. And that decision was not made by the D.A.or anyone else in that office. Hmmm!!!!!!!!! I guess "WHEN NOTHING CHANGES>>>>NOTHING CHANGES"!!!! Maybe we should let Steve Tyler do the job we elected him to do. CLEAN UP THE STINKING MESS THAT HAS SOURED THIS COMMUNITY FOR GENERATIONS.

Thank you unidentified for your support of the officers in Victoria.

Zale: if you really want to sound as smart as you think you are, you might try learning how to spell. Mayer?? And I really like how you've made up some new positions in the PD... Lt. Chief??

You obviously don't like the police.... and I'd be willing to bet that you've probably had some contact with them as well (not on the good side). If you experienced for one day what it was like to be an officer, having to work wrecks where children are injured or sometimes even killed...or anyone for that matter, then maybe you would understand exactly why it is that officers make traffic stops.

AND, if you had any knowledge at all over what an officer actually does...then you would know that sometimes when they drive fast through the city... is simply because they have just been advised that some scumbag somewhere in this city, is beating his wife. If it was your responsibility to stop such actions... what would you do? Is this always the case...no. But most of time it is.

I don't expect you to understand what I'm saying...frankly because just reading the one comment you posted shows your ignorance and lack of knowledge on the subject. I know everyone has their own opinion... but I'm also a realist. And the truth of the matter is that some people are just stupid. And with stupid people, come stupid opinions. You may, or may not fit into this category. I think your future comments will speak for themselves.

It seems to me that our current DA could make ANYONE look like a criminal. He would probably get a small child indicted for 'reckless endangerment' for cutting in front of him in line at the grocery store, arguing to the grand jury that the child's actions caused substantial risk of death or serious physical injury to him! ...and the worst part about that is he could probably convince them! HES AN ATTORNEY, REMEMBER? Tyler is like a bully on the playground... there are consequences to not playing the game his way. He wanted investigators to hand over original documents (evidence in Ratcliff case) to his office when the accused was still working as his Chief of Staff!!! Because of the serious conflict of interest in this case, given Ratcliff and Tyler’s buddy-buddy relationship, PD staff did what they believed was right and protected the integrity of the investigation as best they could… their only crime is ticking off Tyler by not complying with his tyrannical demands. Why was Tyler after the originals? He could have easily worked off copies while the originals were kept at the PD. It has taken Tyler several months to come up with ways to twist the law around to favor him, but he has managed to pull it off.

Just because Tyler is a clever man doesn't make these men criminals. In my opinion, it would have been criminal to watch this case get swept under the rug because of who the accused is friends with (talk about good ol’boy problems). I don't think the city is out of line letting the people involved in this continue working... the charges are ridiculous! The only conspiracy going on in Victoria is Tyler abusing his power and succeeding at single handedly turning the public against their city council, city management, and law enforcement in one fatal swoop. Kudos’ to Tyler. NOW everyone understands why he looked so smug in his interview the other night, huh.

Count on one thing, If the mayor is guilty of conspiracy as alleged by Tyler, then you can bet City Manager Charles Windwehen and City Hall’s own Machiavelli, Charmelle Garrett are into it up to their necks as well - bet on it! Since Tyler seems to be running amok, he might as well add them to his list of indictees - might take the smile off of Garrett’s face. The pucker factor at City Hall must be at about an 8 or 9 on a scale of 10.

I obviously don’t agree with what Tyler is doing, but since he’s determined to make lots of people look like fools (including himself) it’s only fair that he spread it around some more and take a crack at Charles and Charmelle too.

Maybe it’s time for City hall to get a good spring cleaning!

Shinethelight made a death threat in this thread equal to Hillary talking of Obama as RFK rather than JFK. Shame on you, unless it's really funny??

To: MensaSana and unidendtified: I am glad to see some inside perspective on the problem as a click around Garrett and corruption in the hiring process. On Thursday I sent an Email to the Mayor and Council members. I actually received a reply from Paul Polasek. My view from the outside is more informed than most but of inside Victoria, not much. Here is the entire text of my Thursday Email and his reply: **full text from Polasek follows:************************
From: "Paul Polasek"


Reply-To: ppolasek@aloesoft.com


To: hofacker27@netscape.com


Subject: Re: Public opinion of hiring process


Date: Fri 2008-05-30 08:13 PM



Mr. Hofacker,

Thank you for your input. I appreciate your taking the time to send it
to me.

Paul Polasek

> Dear Mr. Mayor and Council members:

This is a sample of (my) comment
> in an Advocate blog. Public opinion decides elections. Corruption in
the
> hiring process rather than corruption in law enforcement could become
the
> issue.
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I forgot the conclusion: Friendswood is to Lake Jackson as Victoria is
to
> Goliad or Cuerro. JAMES

Thanks TomC for the Chron link re: Webster.
> February 13, 2008 Ure spoke at the Texas Municipal League as Ure
> Consulting of Victoria. Did this city pay his travel expenses?
Victoria
> Fire Chief Riley knew knew Ure from Friendswood. Then a desk in a
> different city every year - Missouri City, Webster, Hedwig Village,
Heath
> and Watauga. He kept that dark shirt with the 2 stars on the collar,
> changing only the city patch on the sleeve. Asst. Mgr. Garret and
Capt.
> Boyd traveled out of town to investigate Ure's credentials. Usually
that
> is done via computer and telephone. It SHOULD have been done at all.
> Cagle's office is in League City but his residence is Friendswood.
This is
> redneck good ole boys versus Aggies with law degrees. I don't like
their
> arrogance but you cannot hire someone just because you like the way
they
> talk. Ure gets a new career. Victoria is the last of his string. The
> voters will have turned out 2 DA's for doing what they knew in their
heart
> was right. The only winner in this drama - Echeverry skates. JAMES
> hofacker27@netscape.com

PS: The division in Victoria, and Deacon
> (former sheriff) Mickey's church and nationally is grass roots, local
> control conservative (Populist) versus deep pockets, top down,
national
> Conservative organization. Large "C" versus small "c" - Corruption
seems
> to be winning.
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This Email is to let you know what kind of information is now out
there in
> the public domain.
We trust you sincerely,
>
> JAMES hofacker27@netscape.com (361)-573-7010 (E-mail preferred) 1014
> Westwood, Victoria, Texas 77901-4753
>
> Netscape. Just the Net You Need.

******************end full text from Polasek********

This whole story will now boil down to Who knew what and When did they know it. I hope that is all settled by election time.
James Hofacker (hofacker27@netscape.com) - Sat, 2008-05-31 11:53:56 -0500

urbanangel,

I really don't understand your post. I didn't mention Ratcliff or the police department or make any judgment about guilt or innocence. It appears you have some agenda you are trying to promote and will take any comment and try and manipulate it to support your position, what ever that may be. You are correct about 90% of Victoria having no clue as to what is going on although it should be more like 99.9999%. The City Manager does not know what is going on (unless he was a member of the Grand Jury) and without a doubt you don’t know what is going on (unless you were a member of the Grand Jury). Everything else is conjecture, rumor or innuendo. My point is there is a felony indictment (guilt or innocence yet to be determined) of several high ranking city officials and the council and City Manager deems this to be business as usual. This is what is sad; our city leaders are shirking their responsibilities to the entire city because they don’t agree with the indictment. The council and/or manager have a responsibility to the entire citizenship of Victoria not just one or two city officials.

No one here can say with 100% fact who is guilty and not guilty in all this. So many people here are biased one way or another, finding a straight opinion is impossible. I've seen both sides make a ton of accusations. Hell I saw one poster calling one of the involved a pedophile. How she knows or came to this conclusion is beyond me.

Why in the hell is the City Council taking it's marching orders from the City Manager ?&nbsp; Is the City Council not capable of making a decision without direction from the City Manager ? Time to vote the clowns out.

Only in Victoria is 'business as usual' for the accused Chief of Police to not be placed on paid leave, this blows me away. If he's found guilty later on, everything he's done during this period will have to be reviewed, any cases he might have affected will be thrown out. It seems to me it's standard procedure to take an unpaid leave for this type of situation.

I'd like to thank Councilman Hagan for being the only sane voice on the City Council. This whole mess has done without a doubt shined a light on the incompetent leadership in this town. The next election we need to 'CLEAN HOUSE' vote them all out and vote in a City Council that's ready to get rid of the city manager, chief of police and city attorney.

I'm ready for the Justice Dept or DPS to come take over law enforcement in this town.

unidentified has knocked it out of the park.

I would press the DA to look at the supervisors of the City. Charmelle has orchestrated many shady things in the city for her own benefit and powergrabbing i.e. forcing chief Jones out-which is entirely true although he "retired".

The PD has enough things to worry about instead of trying to staff its position all by itself. The staffing situation you describe is also right on the money. Enter the inept, ill-equipped disaster of an HR director we have. Another way for Charmelle to rule that department too.

All of the DA's forces to bear need to focus on the leadership of our city. If the corruption of "business as usual" does not convince our citizens of this what will?

Hagan-thank you for being a wonderful representative. You are at 10!

Observer....your right, it's a sad day for Victoria Citizens...but not for the reasons you have stated.

It's really sad that probably 90% of Victoria has NO clue what really is going on, and yet many have decided they know who is guilty of what.

Please stop pretending to know what even other members of the department don't. The details of the Ratcliff investigation have yet to come out, and until they do, please reserve your judgement.

The men and women at the police department deserve that.

It is a sad day for all of the citizens of Victoria when our supposed leaders see felony indictments of high ranking officials as "business as usual". Unfortunately after over 45 years of living in Victoria there is more truth in this statement then what we may want to believe. If a firefighter (or six) are ACCUSSED of a crime they are put on paid leave (good decision, don't aggravate an already bad situation), but if the Chief of Police or Mayor or high ranking police officer are ACCUSSED of a crime, it is business as usual. What does this say about our City Manager and City Council? More of the "good ol'boy" mentality is what it says. I applaud David Hagen not only for taking the moral high road in his fiduciary responsibilities to the citizens of Victoria but for also placing himself in a position of potential personal attack for doing the right thing. I only hope that the other council members will hear the outrage of their constituents and correct the unbelievable decision of allowing people with felony indictments to maintain positions of oversight in the city government. I understand a special council meeting is scheduled for next week so that citizens can voice their concerns. If this is correct ALL concerned citizens should be letting their council members know how they feel about this situation. I feel certain the thoughts of the council (other then Mr. Hagen), the City Manager and the Mayor are “we know better as to what is best for Victoria, better then the citizens themselves”. Again I state it is a sad day for the citizens of Victoria.

shinethelight: You make some very valid points. It's nice to see someone at least TRYING to think the whole situation through without a blinded, biased, love for one of the parties involved.

I would like to offer some counter points for you to ponder.
While I completely understand your point on Ure and Buentello being put on paid leave... let me explain the way things really work.

If Ure were to be put on paid leave, next in command would be Deputy Chief Boyd. Boyd is currently out of state for training. He is scheduled to be back soon, but... his name is also mentioned in some of Ure's indictments. If things continue the way they have been..there is a possibility that DC Boyd could also be in the same boat as Ure.

If this were to happen, command would then fall to the police departments two captains. Both men are extremely intelligent and more than capable of doing the job well. Naturally, you would think that one of these fine men would be put in charge during the proceedings. YOU WOULD THINK... however, the PD has been in this situation before. No, not with the controversy, but the PD has gone without a chief for while. This happened when Charmelle Garret FORCED Richard Jones to retire as chief of the PD. I could go into that whole ordeal..but I'll leave that alone for now.

Anyway, after Jones' retirement, the PD was chiefless. There was no position for a Deputy Chief at that time, only two captains. One of the captains, happened to be Boyd. So, this only re-enforces my point. Instead of placing one of these men in charge as acting chief, Charmelle opted to basically run the PD herself. The PD did not progress AT ALL over this time period (which was several months). They did not hire new employees... or take any action to better the department and attempt to hold on the the employees it had. The wheels stopped turning.

So lets look at this... even if Boyd comes back and he is free and clear (which is what should happen), do we really know that Charmelle is going to allow him to run the PD? She didn't in past. And how long do you think this whole process is going to take to play out? I can tell you this, Ure and Buentello are going to have to go to trial to clear their names. SO if they are innocent, it could literally be a year or even more before they would be able to resume their duties after being cleared. That is potentially, a year or more of Charmelle Garret running this police department.

Think what you want about Ure, but he has fought for the officers. Most recently, he has been fighting tooth and nail with the city council to get the officers pay increases. You've all seen the decisions they make...like the city managers huge raise to an already bloated salary. But yet.. the officers of this department are making substantially lower than comparable cities. Ure has been FIGHTING to change that. Do you really think Charmelle will continue this fight for the officers?

I know there is someone just dying to make a comment about how the officers don't need more money or something completely STUPID of that nature. I'll just say this, when you get up in the morning and put on a bulletproof vest, strap a gun to your hip (not for power or looks, but for your safety)... kiss and hug your family, tell them you love them, and then leave...knowing that you may never see them again because you DIED defending some stranger (that probably doesn't even appreciate what you do).... then you can say what the officers do and do NOT deserve.

But back to my point, this PD is already understaffed. Recently there have been about 10 new officers hired that are all still in training, or yet to even begin their training. And even with those new hires, there are still openings. Most recently, the PD has been so understaffed, that at times there have only been 5 or 6 officers working the entire city for their whole 12 (most of the time more like 15) hour shifts.

So here's my point... Being an officer in Victoria right now, is a sorry place to be. No matter what Tyler "says", it is still in the back of the mind of every officer that if they make a MISTAKE (a genuine mistake), they could be the next target. So couple that with continued poor pay..then a suspended Chief........... how much do you really expect these people to put up with before they do like MANY other officers have done, and move on?

If these people do move on...don't expect to hire officers from other towns, because its already been proven that they DO NOT want to work here. And if you think that the answer is in hiring more people off the street and paying for them to go through the police academy and become your officers...you need to be aware that it takes right around a year for the entire process to be completed. After the extensive background check (about 3 months on average), comes a 16 week long academy... then when they get out of there, comes a 16 week long field training program. Then IF they pass all of these... you end up with a ROOKIE. And that again, is assuming that the officers in charge of training these people are still here.

So again... the point of this long story is that all of these indictments have taken a huge toll on the ENTIRE Police Department. The citizens of this city had really better start taking the moral of the PD into consideration while they protest Ure remaining on duty. When people need help....they call the police. What will we do if one day there are only a handful of police officers to call upon. I guess the city could always hire one of the local security companies...I'm sure people would feel safe then.

I am surprised the national news hasn't picked up on this yet. I have seen much more trivial situations covered in fairly intensive detail. I guess no one wants to fire off that e-mail and risk getting Mr. Tyler after them.

The following is the Associate Press story which is now being reported across Texas. The story of our city's disgrace appeared in the Austin American-Statesman. Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Corpus Christi Caller-Times, the Laredo Heral, and countless other newspapers, not to mention TV and radio stations. Folks, our city is being made a laughingstock. The citizens of our fine city need to rise up and &quot;Take Victria Back.&quot; The news coverage and negative attention will only increase in the coming days. If our elected officals cared about the city they would do the right thing and resign and if they wont, then we need to initiate a recall election and remove them from office ourselves. With the exception of David Hagan, the whole lot needs to go.
Victoria mayor, police officer indicted in leak probe
The Associated Press
VICTORIA, Texas -- Victoria Mayor Will Armstrong has been indicted in a widening probe accusing top city officials, including the police chief, of tampering with a criminal case against a former sheriff facing child sex charges.
Armstrong and Victoria police Lt. Ralph Buentello were indicted Friday on conspiracy and other charges tied to the investigation last year of former Victoria County Sheriff Michael Ratcliff, who was accused of sexually assaulting a teenage boy.
Earlier this week, Victoria Police Chief Bruce Ure and former city attorney David Smith were indicted on charges alleging they leaked information about the case to a local reporter.
The charges facing the four men have rattled this South Texas town and widened a rift between city leaders and Victoria County prosecutors. City officials say they became involved in the Ratcliff investigation amid concerns over a lack of progress.
&quot;We have not been presented with any evidence indicating their actions failed to comply with the law,&quot; City Attorney Miles Risley said in Saturday's editions of the Victoria Advocate.
Risley read the statement to a crowd that included more than 50 police supporters.
Ratcliff was indicted in October on three counts of sexually assaulting a teenage boy. He was accused of offering the boy a swap of sexual favors for a nicer cell in the hospital wing when the boy was an inmate.
Prior to his arrest Friday, Armstrong had strongly defended Ure and Smith and accused District Attorney Stephen Tyler of playing politics.
Tyler has called the May 2007 trial of a Victoria police officer, who was acquitted of sexual harassment, as the start of a rift between him and Ure. Tyler was highly critical of the city for keeping the officer on the force.
Armstrong was indicted on misuse of official information and criminal conspiracy, both felonies. Buentello faces the same charges, plus he was indicted on aggravated perjury, tampering with a witness and official oppression.
Armstrong said he had been advised not to comment. Buentello said he thinks &quot;everything is going to be fine,&quot; the newspaper reported.
The mayor, police chief and Buentello will continue working despite their indictments this week.
Tyler said the indictments prove the laws apply to everyone.
&quot;We are all supposed to live and comport ourselves with the law,&quot; Tyler said. &quot;All of us. No exceptions.&quot;

&nbsp;
&nbsp;
&nbsp;

Whether you support Tyler or not, and whether you think these indictments are bogus or not, we need to have a response by our city officials that is reasoned, based on common sense, and protects the interests of the taxpayers of our city. That is why I am highy concerned that David Hagan appears to be the only member of the City Council who is doing his job. Let's say that the Police Chief and the other police officers who have been indicted are found to be not-guilty when they go to trial.&nbsp;&nbsp;Under Hagan's plan they will still have their jobs, will have never missed a paycheck, and will have had the time needed to prepare their defense. The people who have concerns about their guilt will not have to worry about them using their official powers to further obstruct justice or to intiimidate or tamper with witnesses. In other words everybody wins. But let's think about what happens if they are indeed found guilty. Not only will we have alled people to continue to serve in a position of trust when they did not deserve that trust, but more importantly, we will have put the City of Victoria in a dangerous position with every arrest, official action, investigation, etc. conducted by those officers coming under intense scrutiny, and opening the door to dozens of lawsuits against the city. That is why all across Texas and the rest of the nation, when police officers are indicted&nbsp;or charged with a crime, they are placed on paid leave so none of these problems can occur. In fact, that has been the policy of the City of Victoria for all of the prior cases like this--except they did not&nbsp;also involve the Mayor of former City Attroney.&nbsp; When a group of Victoria firefighters were recently charged with a crime, they were placed on paid leave until there case was heard and their guilt or innocence determined. Why should&nbsp;this case be any different, no matter what your opinion of the DA. &nbsp;David Hagan did not indict anyone, but as a council member he has a responsibility to protect the financial interests of the City of Victoria and to protect the city from lawsuits, etc. Why does the City manager and the other council members fear placing these men on paid leave and letting them focus their time and eneregy on defending themselves. Can you imagine the lawsuit that would be filed against the city if, God forbid, one of the them was shot or injured on the job. You can bet one would be filed alleging that the city should not have forced them to carry out their normal police duties while it was clear they were under intense stress. That is why in these cases, people are put on paid leave--to protect the taxpayers, as wellas the officer.
Finally, I do not understand why this is a decision that is being made by the&nbsp;apointed City manager rather than the elected council members who report to and are responsible to the voters. &nbsp;The City Manager&nbsp;is appointed by the Mayor who is now under indictment himself as a part of this case.&nbsp; Do you think that fact colored the City manger's decision in this particualr case?&nbsp; You bet it did. . No wonder he won't do the right thing here. He is afraid of losing his job. The city council, with the exception David Hagan should be afraid of losing their jobs. They have abdicated their duty to the people who elected them to represent their interests. People seem to be acting like this is all a game. It is not. It is very serious and could have severe financial reprecussions for many years to come if we do not stop and think&nbsp;about how the city is dealing with these issues.
God Bless David Hagan and keep him strong!

I have supported getting Tyler out of office, all this time. If these &quot;powers that be&quot; have tried to unlawfully hinder the investigation of Ratcliff, then you can expect me to say &quot;good&quot; to Tyler for getting them out. But, Tyler still has to go.&nbsp; People, DO NOT BE IGNORANT. This &quot;powers that be&quot; manipulation crap has been going on, I know, since Ted Reed's day. Old Ted Reed had masterminded persuasive tactics in the past. Even though he is deceased, and doing sommersaults in his grave, he is the history of this tactic. Gary Middleton just picked it up where he left off, then I guess Armstrong did the same exact thing. Convince innocents that they are in trouble and in danger if they do not obey. If they go against the powers that be, their heads will roll. Their jobs will terminate. They might be punished severely. It's been in place for decades. This is old school scare tactics. I was a victim of it. And we're just NOW arresting these powers that be? Crazy Victoria.

Geez. What a ballsy bunch of dudes we put on council. Thanks Hagan for being the only one with any common sense related to this matter.

I'm familiar with the business of several of these guys. When they chose a "public life" they placed themselves in a high profile position to serve the public. Persumably. Perhaps to serve themselves. Given that, I suggest the citizens serve themselves by boycotting their individual business well beyond this fiasco.

Anyone know the places these guys own, or work at? Please let the rest of us know and we can speak up.

Talk about arrogance......The City manager who just got a ridiculously excessive and undeserved raise....just takes it in his hands to toss out Grand Jury Indictments and calls it "BUSINESS AS USUAL".....

Man....just because you are indicted by the Grand Jury doesn't mean you can't serve as Police Chief or Mayor. That is totally insane.

Hagen is the only one on the council with any ethics, or common sense. Vote the rest of them off and while we are at it get rid of the Mayor and the City Manager. I am sure we can find someone for half the money Windwehen is costing us to let criminals run our city.

WOW !

I agree, until cleared or charged, they need to be on paid leave.

Once again, Council Member David Hagan is the only one of the lot who shows any degree of wisdom and respect for the best interests of the City of Victoria and its taxpayers. The rest of the bunch need to go and soon.

Hagen is the only person on the city council or in the city mangers office with any brains!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I back the Blue but&nbsp;they should not be in office till&nbsp;they are cleared!!!!!