Rainwater....Yes, the Welders and OConners had a presence in Duval County and further South toward Laredo. I can remember knowing Mr. Welder from seeing him at the grocery store and hearing my dad talk about pumping oilwells on their land. I had no idea they were "rich people" until I was grown and moved to Victoria. I was shocked....everyone knew them and we thought they were as poor as we were. Of course those were the older "hands on" ranching generation.

I can remember one of the Welders going hog hunting with my dad. Dad had some of the best dogs in the county and if it were not for wild hog, javelin, and deer meat most of the families I knew in Duval County would not have eaten very well.

Still I don't think anything as brutal as what went on in Duval ever happened in Victoria. I can remember as a child my parents talking about a reporter over in Alice...young and stupid reporter....who was taking on an expose of the Parr dynasty. He was shot in a restaurant in Alice....in front of a roomful of people and no one saw a thing.

I also remember LBJ getting into politics, the famous "Box 13"....that got him elected and my mom and dad talking about the corruption but also very afraid to talk too loudly. At least now we can express our opinions openly and without too much fear. The rich are still powerful and at times brutal in their dealings but it is not as easy as back in the 50's and 60's.

One funny story....There were always illegals that would come during cattle season to work cattle. Unlike today...they came, they worked, they went back home and never tried to milk the system because basically there was no system to milk. One fine Mexican gentleman, undocumented but a fine man and a fine worker, would work for us sometime after cattle season was over and before he went back to Mexico. It was election time and he told my dad that he had voted twice in the election...."Mr. Parr paid me $5.00 and gave me a ride to the voting place." He also provided a fake poll tax receipt. Remember the poll tax...all you old people out there?

Poor old George did meet a tragic end however....blowing his brains out sitting in his car out by a water well on his ranch. The thought of going to jail was too much for him. If you are interested in the history of this era there are a couple of books...."The Duke of Duval", and "Oil, Mud, and Guts". Both are very interesting if you are fascinated by or lived during this era.

Tsk, tsk, if those gents open their mouth when they were not supposed to, then let them pay the price if they are found guilty. I am tired of this little game that "our" leaders are playing, making Victoria their little playground where rules can be broken without consequences. If the Grand Jury, which happens to be fellow citizens think that those people needed to be indicted, then let's trust ourselves and let the course continue.

Luminary.....When the Parrs were in their hayday it was a different world. There is no way, in this time, that any political figure could get by with what those two did back in the 50's and 60's. It was the Texas equivalent of the mob in Chicago. All the brutality and blantant disregard of the law. The Parrs owned Duval County and most of the people in it.

I went to school in a school district that was the richest in Texas. However the only electives we had to choose from were Homemaking and Shop.....no art, no speech. Don't get me wrong I got a great education, but with very little to work with in a school district that should have been able to provide the very best. The Parrs owned the schools, and the law in Duval County. And you did not dare challenge them....that is if you wanted to stay alive.

What we have here is a feud between the powers that be. We also have some of those powers that be that feel they do not have to comply with the letter of the law....but they are in no way close to the Parrs. Thank God the days of the massive and powerful corrupt political machine is no more.....unless we want to talk about the Clintons and the number of missing and dead bodies that seem to follow them.

Use all the license and lack of knowledge you care to. It's a free country and you can imagine yourself to be intelligent, knowledgable, and well read.

Ill Luminated: Perhaps you should turn on the light before you read your history books. And especially when you post about things you know nothing about.

You did compare Victoria to the others. Delete if you like, but you don't know south Texas history.

SoTex: Thanks for clearing up the comparison to Duval County of many moons ago. I was just a kid when it was being prosecuted, so didn't recall the details. They are obviously much mor vivid for you.

Luminary doesn't know of which he speaks in both comparisons. Ill-luminary thus.

Victoria's "little" scandal may be "winkie dink" compared to the Parrs now, but little scandals - and this is NOT little, in my estimation - may mushroom into bigger ones. And maybe we'll find out just how "little" little is when testimony starts coming out in the Ratcliffe case.

For now, all I'll say is I hope Tyler has his ducks in a row.

I am asking these questions again hoping Mr. Cobbler could find out or an attorney, possibly, sickandtired could answer --> If the same Grand Jury that indicted Ratcliff *had* to handle these ‘spin-off cases’ shouldn’t the same Prosecutor who will prosecute Ratcliff handle these *spin-off cases*? If not, why not? How is this different? If Tyler recused himself to be a witness in the Ratcliff case, how fair is it to the other defendants for Tyler to question them and to hear all of their Grand Jury testimony? Is this ethical or even legal?

Are you comparing felony charges to parking tickets? Are you saying that Tyler was in fact ticketed for these offensives and refused to pay the tickets? Even as irrelevant as that comparison is, I'm betting that, if indeed he was ticketed, he paid the fine(s).

The bigger picture is this, that Ure, Smith, Buentello and Armstrong (and others) all gave testimony to this Grand Jury. It was their own testimony which compelled the Grand Jury to return the indictments. Evidently, there was conflicting testimony and other evidence which was found to discredit their testimony.

Don't dismiss the seriousness of a perjury charge. Regardless of perceived intent, lying under oath is an unacceptable action. Taking into account that these four are (were) important civic leaders, their actions were even more serious. Because of their position in the community they should be held to an even higher level of scrutiny. Without trust in our civic leaders, the rest of a community's identity will degenerate into a feudalistic fiefdom with justice only available to those with connections.

This little Victoria fiasco is no where close to the brutal and extensive corruption of the Parr dynasty in Duval County. I was raised in Duval County; people who were shot in local restaurants were listed as death my natural causes on the death certificates; George Parr signed the teacher's paychecks when he was not on the school board or even associated with the School District.....The Parrs were instrumental in getting the illustrious LBJ elected by voting dead people, illegal aliens and registered cattle.

Clinton Manges, though a low life piece of cow dung did not inherit the Parr dynasty....he was a rich guy who bought a ranch in Duval County and tried to throw his weight around.....He was more involved in state and national politial corruption than Duval County. Loyd Bentson was a regular visitor to his ranch.

Luminary.....don't try to talk about something you don't know about.

My father ran for the schoolboard in Duval County during the Parr dynasty and my family's life was threatened...I lived it.

The Parr's were brutal oulaws living by Old West rules and it was allowed.

Victoria's little scandal is winkie dink compared to the Parrs.

Luminary: I suppose your analogy from 40 years ago MIGHT be inline with this mess. I believe I suggested this as well.

Care to address your comparison to the Valley counties?

Hidalgo: Luminary. And the corrupt model for both it and Starr counties is one of drug and drug trafficing. Are you suggesting that is what will be revealed here as well.

Duval follows the "political power" model more closer, although 40-50 years ago with much different dynamics.

Please know your corruption when you see it.

“We are all supposed to live and comport ourselves with the law,” he said. “All of us. No exceptions.”
Quote from DA Steve Tyler

This is the same man that people are saying parked illegally in handicapped parking spaces at his office?
And the same man who some other people are saying got ticked off cause he got ticketed for not having a license plate on the front of his car.
Don't know that any of that is true -- just throwing out for thought

If the same Grand Jury that indicted Ratcliff *had* to handle these ‘spin-off cases’ shouldn’t the same Prosecutor who will prosecute Ratcliff handle these *spin-off cases*? If not, why not? How is this different? If Tyler recused himself to be a witness in the Ratcliff case, how fair is it to the other defendants for Tyler to question them and to hear all of their Grand Jury testimony? Is this ethical or even legal? He says he wants to insure a fair trial for Ratcliff. Wonder what he wants for Chief Ure, David Smith, Mayor Armstrong and Lt. Buentello?

Thank you Steve Tyler for trying to uphold the law in Victoria even though people in power are the lawbreakers. That is not a popular stance and I am sure it would have been much easier for you and for your family to have just let the big boys slide.

However, it appears that these people's actions may have been in an effort to prevent Ratcliff from getting a fair deal and a fair trial. You may think Ratcliff is guilty but I personally think he has been set up by some very powerful people who did not like his common sense leadership. If he is guilty, then he should be punished as deserved. If not then he should not be ramroded into a conviction based on the underhanded efforts of people like the Police Chief and Mayor.

"They took their time, they deliberated, they did what they thought was right,” he said. “I present evidence to them. They make the determination.” Bushwa Tyler.

There is an old saying: "A district attorney can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.

You are a new hot shot DA. Relax, don't try to be a big fish in a small pond. Prosecute real criminals, don't try to prove what a big shot you are, just because you managed to win an election. So far you are not real impressive, just a flash in the pan. Yes these are sort of personal comments, but then you are a public person, on the public payroll and holding yourself out for public attention. Grow up.

I am the LAW! I am the LAW! I am the LAW! I am the LAW!
Tyler thinks to him self as he sits at his desk!