prove - I was not joking.

I was just amazed that the Advocate printed this piece because it's so ..... bad. Full of logical absurdities and non sequiturs.

"You and all the politicians are dancing around the real issue: Pro-life puts the privilege of the one before the rights of the many.
Didn't God demand Abraham's son?"

Huh?? So "one" only has "privileges" but "the many" have "rights".??? Has Mr. Brown never heard of the concept of Civil Rights --where an individual (one) has rights which cannot be violated by a majority (the many)? And all this is related to the sacrificial offering of Isaac how exactly?? I'm sorry... but Mr. Brown's "arguments" are just incoherent dreck.

"The original understanding of pro-life was the preservation of the species - particularly after the decimation of Christianity through martyrdom."

Again, this is just nuts.But my favorite has has to be-- "Science is in a race to clone a human being and the only knowledge we have of the consequences are the shadowy rumors that cloning destroyed the fabled continent of Atlantis."

Wow! Unbelievable! And the author has a B.A. in ENGLISH from UT. I guess we now know what that's worth.

The whole execution of this piece is soooo goofy and tangential, I am mystified as to why the Advocate would print it.

Doc1

China kills alot of young persons because they deem their quality of life not to be good. The Germans during WWII also made judgements on quality of life and eliminated those who were not perfect or destined to be a drain on society.

Have you noticed how many less down syndrome children there are? The last thing I read said only one-third of children with down syndrome are being born. We are solving that little problem.

If a child is a drain on society or will not have what we think is a good quality of life, heck, kill them.

We could eliminate autism- except we might have to do it when the child is around three which is when symptoms start manifesting.

Have you seen those suffering from cancer?(pick one) It is not comfortable to watch them waste away. Plus, they are in such pain. And talk about a drain on society, the cost is enormous. We could eliminate that problem also.

What about those suffering from birth defects? Cleft Palates? Cerebral Palsy? Those children have a lifetime of surgeries, pain, and of children making fun of their looks. We can solve that problem.

While we are at it, the elderly seem to come down with diseases that are very inconvenient, Alzheimers, Parkinsons disease and etc. Think how hard it is for one child to take care of two parents with special needs!

Oh, I forgot, we can test the ones who are most likely to become alcoholic, drug abusers and eliminate them before they enter into a life of crime or hurt some one or end up in jail. The taxpayer will come out way ahead!

Wow, we could have a perfect world!!!

If it is a life, then it is wrong to kill it. Even if.

Despite what some intellectual or church leader or politician or whoever else may believe, facts are facts. A fetus is an innocent human being. Unless that life endangers the life of another human being (i.e. its mother), there's no moral justification to kill it.

Hey Hick, I bet you laugh at your on jokes,,,even though no one else is laughing. I was'nt aware that this was a Joke comment section? I deleted my comment about God,,since that seem to hit a nerve with ya.

TRUE story. young woman pregnant, went to one of those pro-life free pregnancy test places. Got convinced to keep the kid. After my talk to give it up or have an abortion because she had no clue to raising a child as she was a child herself. Did  not even know who the real father was, too  many possibilities.  NOPE. kept the kid drank like a fish, baby was born with fetal alcohol syndrome. Had tremendous behavior problems, both from bad parenting (or very little) and FAS. Has been in jail and will most likely live off society for the rest of his life. And be a burden and a criminal. No quality of life for himself or others or any kids he may bring into the world. The stupidity and misery is passed on AND ON.....

Having an abortion has nothing to do with GOD. It has to do with humans "policing" their race. I say this to those church goers that are against abortion... Why don't you go to the clinics and tell the mothers that you will take the child after birth. This way you have nothing to gripe about.

However there were several reasons an abortion would be suitable that were already mentioned here. I did not see this one...

If giving birth would kill the mother...

Anyway, church or no church, if you do not believe in abortion then do something about it. Take the soon to be children and stand up for what you believe in or STFU.

and another comment. This is quite iteresting

http://faculty.cua.edu/Pennington/Law...

One comment. If you don't want to lose what you have typed, Copy it before you hit "OK" and try and send it, then if it is lost, just C&P it back in the little box.

Hello LBB,

I want to comment on the Catholic/abstinence point, make one observation, then I’m out of here, as I’ve lost this post twice already and had to retype!

I posted earlier: “Also, you all keep bringing up abstinence and the Catholic Church. I'll say it again, it isn't just a Catholic thing.”

You stated: “What other main line church prohibits birth control?

I receive e-mail updates from the Family Research Council, which promotes abstinence. They are mainly a Protestant group, but do work with Catholics from time to time. The Protestants that I know who are strict adherents of abstinence do think artificial birth control is A-okay within marriage.

So a group promoting abstinence isn’t always against birth control in all cases, as some are led to believe.

I hope you do see some responses from Mr. Tasin, as you are certainly approachable, reasonable, and most civil.

Also, I think it is obvious that Mr. Rawley Brown (whom this thread left behind a long time ago) has a beef with the church of his childhood. But even he should realize that being pro-life not the soul (pun intended!) domain of Catholics.

Just think, all the other zealous pro-life Christian, Muslim, or Jewish brethren of mine are missing out on the “fun.” If my Baptist friends were targeted by someone ( I do not have you in mind.) for the sin of being pro-life in a culture such as ours, I’d have to join them for a little shared verbal maltreatment.

Btw, my boys placed 5th and 7th in their divisions with their animals, so we’re off to the sale this evening. Also, I protest that I am sweet, as you’ve seen me in the cat fights. You do tend to bring out the best in people.)

I was one who talked one out of having an abortion, (due to the fact of my Catholic upbringing), I then took in this drug/alcohol laced baby knowing he would not learn or achieve much, would have ton of medical problems and not live very long, but a few years later, a extremely intelligent,and loving child came to life, and now many years later I have come to understand why abortion is so wrong, WE DO NOT KNOW WHO WE ARE KILLING.

None of this matters anyway. The Mayans predicted that our world will end in 2012. Live it up while you can I say.

That's what's wonderful about hypotheticals and speculation; you can dictate the outcome.Even a dumb hick from Victoria like myself knows that.
It was the politicians who submitted bills to chop at the legs of Roe v Wade with legislation like “partial-birth abortion.” ..The last ruling by the Supreme Court eliminated the "life of the mother clause"
Apr 24, 2007 - 08:59:14 CDT
By Jonathan Rivoli Bismarck Tribune
The North Dakota Legislature voted Monday to ban abortion in the event that a future Supreme Court ruling makes such a move constitutional.
Any mega church ,the Catholic church and even the one on Constitution and Vine rely on money given by it’s members ;nothing cynical about that.

Reference please…Omni said “the real reason” meaning the post had some merit and not just speculation based on a personal opinion.

President George W. Bush said his conscience and his religious belief would not allow them to authorize the funding of embryonic stem cell research. He is a Methodist and his statement leaves him open to a church state argument.

Roe v.Wade will always be hard to overturn and the Catholic Church has nothing to do with that...Can you name 10 politicians that have submitted bills to overturn Roe v. Wade?It has always been a politican football.

To answer the question of what Pro-Lifers are doing to help mothers let me say this:
Here in Victoria there is the Crisis Pregnancy Center where any girl can go for a free pregnancy test and any kind of help she would require.
Then there is the Gabrial Project for mothers who are pregnant and they too will help medically, physically, finanically with her and her child.
Then there is Life & Family Advocates, They are involved in education and put out a Pro-Life Newsletter to over 1400 families each month. In addition they provide chastity and Pro-Life literature each month to students in the Christian Clubs in Seven local schools plus Victoria College. They do this each month. In addition they help set up the Life Chain each October, A booth at the Life Stock Show, A Candlelight March for Life (this Thursday, Jan.22)Are you going to be there? In Addition they hand out education brochures to over 1000 peaple or cars each month, stand on cornors with pro-life good and gross signs once each month, write letters to the papers, go to Abortion clincs to protest and pray. They will also come and speak to groups and welcome anyone that would like to help.If you ask me if we are doing enough I would be ashamed to answer.

Baptismal water is a symbol. If not actual baptism, at least a prayer? Something? Since life supposedly starts at conception, shouldn't something be done? Mass is said for the deceased all the time, so why are these "lifes" not thought of in the same way as other lifes, according to the Church?

Suzy,
how would you propose that the baptisimal water cleanse the baby in the mother's womb?

surprise, surprise, he went to school at ut-austin in the most liberal city (by far) in Texas...it looks like the ultra liberal professors at ut had a field day with this guy...sad it really is

i sort of like the idea of taking organs frm death row inmates, as for killing them, we could just hang them.

Something just occured to me and I need to ask a question to anyone that knows. Since life supposedly starts at conception, are aborted and stillborn babies baptized? I don't remember my fetus being baptized when I had a miscarriage, nor anyone at the hospital asking me if I wanted it done.

ill take college professor over a religious hack any day.

we wouldnt have so many problems with abortion if we could just devote research and development into safe sex methods instead of preaching all tht chastity, abstinence and sex before marriage crap to teens when we know most will let it go through one ear and out the other. if history has proven one thing, its that if u tell a kid not to do something, then he/she is gonna do it and when they do wht will actually happen is no where near to wht you fear will happen.

It's been a long day, so I haven't been able to get to this until now. Thanks to Mary Ann and Nickelsworth, all the heavy lifting has already been done.
I can answer the question why this became a Catholic thread: Because the writer of the column directed his screed toward the Catholic church. Really. I never saw such vitriol in a newspaper until Sunday morning. It only proves to me that having a college education doesn't necessarily confer wisdom. The guy on Main Street who cuts my hair once a month is far wiser.

Thanks!

Before I shut it down for the night, I have to say thanks to LBB, Darlins 64, Mike, and everyone else here tonight.
Even though we disagree and have strongly held opinions and beliefs, it was great to discuss this topic and still keep up the respect for one another.
LBB, I'll be away for sometime tomorrow, as it's showtime for the pigs, and a funeral for a friend's husband as well, but I will reply to your commentos as time allows.

Okay, here goes.
Do I know if the birth rate among unmarried Catholics is declining.... among those I know of in my family, yes.
Catholics at large, I'm not sure. Remember, just because someone says he is Catholic doesn't mean today that he or she follows the teachings of the Church. Sadly, there are many Catholics out there that have not been catechized and follow the culture. I was one of those for a long time, and I still struggle.
I think that in most religions, there is always a faithful remnant, like with the ancient Jews. It's human nature and our frailty, IMHO.
As far as your comment on the Catholics having the unwed babies, that is your opinion, and I don't think you need documentation for stereotyping, which you did say it could be perceived as.
I think me making a comment on how many Baptists there were at Alcoholic Anonymous or some gamblers addiction course ('cause they ain't supposed to drink or gamble) would have been similar.
I really don't care to discuss Tasin with you, as I think he's become a whipping boy here. I'll answer that I think very few of our efforts here, including mine, probably have any effect.
Which does make me wonder why I am here, other than I like to argue and this is a topic that is that attracts me like none other because of the injustices done.
If nothing else, I am learning so that when I do meet people face to face, I will be better prepared to answer questions and support my point of view. I have found that being on here and discussing issues with people has helped me to think things through beforehand and be able to support my point of view when necessary.

Mike is correct, I am not a spokesperson for the Catholic Church by any means, and I never will claim to be.

But I am a practicing Catholic that follows Church teaching, after reading, research, and even living the opposite of what the Church teaches in my younger years.

I have to agree with Pat on this one- why is this now a Catholic-bashing thread? Yes.... LBB? (I am back on because my wonderful sister-in-law (Nickelsworth) got on line, so I'm here in between shows.)
Catholics are not the only ones who are pro-life, but Rawley Brown sure thinks so. That's another back-handed compliment from the pro-abortionists.
If you go to the Candlelight March for life, it ends at a Lutheran Church, and it will have Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, and others in attendance and PROTESTING and praying.
Why just dump on the Catholics?
Some people I am acquaintances and friends with are prayerful Baptists and they are SO pro-life. That's what's great about the pro-life movement, as so many Christians find unity behind LIFE.
Also, you all keep bringing up abstinence and the Catholic Church. I'll say it again, it isn't just a Catholic thing. The practicing Catholics I know do not teach abstinence (just say no) but teach chastity (save sex for marriage and why).
I get some of my e-mail updates on abstinence (which I do NOT teach to my kids) from the Family Research Council, and they are a PROTESTANT coalition, mainly Baptists.
Those Baptists have it going on! I might not agree with them on all topics, but the ones I know do not believe in just giving a kid birth control and leaving them to do as they please. Sex outside of marriage can be very damaging for teenagers.

Why do people on here continually try to demonize Paul Tasin?
He didn't originate this topic, a pro-abort with horrbible logic did.
Let's discuss the issues, not Paul Tasin.
Holy smokes, the guy simply commented on a topic. No one is here to post at anyone else's command!

People keep asking what Mr. Tasin and others are doing to help those who want to keep their baby. I am really confused here. If a person thinks it is wrong to kill an unborn child, people think that that child should then become their responsibility?? Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

I believe that spousal abuse is wrong, yet I am not taking in any wives who were abused.

I believe that illegal immigration is wrong, yet I am not standing at the border with a gun.

I believe that you should not kill unwanted pets, yet I am not taking a bunch of strays into my home.

The truth should stand on its own. It is wrong to rape a woman. It is wrong to steal. It is wrong to lie. It is wrong to kill.

We don't say that we personally are opposed to rape, but we cannot put our beliefs on someone else. I am opposed to stealing except if its a rich CEO. I am opposed to lying except if telling the truth will land me in jail, I am opposed to killing except if the person is not wanted.

Truly, what about personal responsibility?

I do agree that we should help those in need and I do, but that should not be the condition on which another will do the right thing or not.

Thank you for listening.

Lol Too many Catholics for us to be practicing group think. That's a billion of us worldwide.

They are right the Vatican is very adamant in the rights of the unborn but it is equally zealous against the war in Iraq, and the death penalty.

None of the aforementioned is the official spokesmen for the local diocese, church, or religion for that matter.

I have a question. Why did this turn into a "Catholic" thing? I know many women who are not nor have they ever been Catholic who have had abortions. I know pro-lifers who are not nor have they ever been Catholic. How did this all come down to dumping on the Catholic church? I am not nor have I ever been Catholic. I can honestly say I don't believe pro-life is unique to Catholics. I just want to know why, if you are pro-life, you are not standing at the entrance to every abortion clinic 24/7 offering alternatives to mothers with unwanted preganancies. Can anyone out there give me any kind of an answer?

1st - A little about Sister Perpetua Hawes - She was my cousin, and there was never a more lovely person than she! She knew all that I had been thru, all the mistakes I have made and all my "sins".... but she never held that against me. She did much at Our Lady of The Gulf and Our Lady of Victory. Yes, Perpetual Help Home was named for her. I do believe that it was initially her idea to help women who were just coming out of jail/rehab/or the sort. It was designed to help women in whatever situation become self-sufficient. She was the most wonderful person.LBB, yes - I too, remember going to confession and then Mass on Saturday evening, and then going out to party! Confession was almost like a "get out of jail free" card to me... but that was when I was younger.Yes, LBB, the Catholic Church needs to change their "thinking". IMO, the Catholic church is still sexist and primival.

6,098,367,197,205, over 6 trilion? there isn't even that many people on the planet earth.

Hey, the good Catholics I know don't teach abstinence. It's the good folks at the Family Research Council (mainline Protetants) who promote that.

I'll have to find some information about chastity, but it focuses on not just saying no to premarital sex, but WHY- physically, emotionally, socially, and yes, spirtually.

At first, I took your comment about the Catholics having all the unwed babies as another bigoted anti-Catholic statement, then I thought, no- it's a testament to the women who have made mistakes and then chose to keep their children.

Use all the birth control you want.

It fails. In fact 60% of women who go in for abortion were using birth control, according to Human Life International.

So, it's a back-handed compliment that these Catholic girls are unwed mothers. Cast the stones, LBB.

We're all sinners, and we all make mistakes. We don't have to compound them by killing the children.

LBB, I disagree with your statement about the Catholic Church and the 20th century. Truth doesn't change, nor does human nature.

What you really suggest is that the Catholic Church should compromise truth and morality to fit in with today's secular culture.

Giving into the culture might be EASIER, as some groups have found, I'll grant you that.

Free love comes with real consequences, many of them fatal.

About confession, it's another misconception that people perpetuate.

It ain't all right to do whatever as long as you go to confession- because the Church teaches that you must make true and sincere effort to avoid that occassion of sin. If you intend to go to the party and do it again, your sin is not absolved because of your insincerity.

Also, there is a new generation of Catholics coming up who take their faith seriously, and they (we) see the damage done in society by "doing it because it feels good."

Hopefully, my children and the John Paul II generation can explain to others what we believe and why we believe it, and leave out the incivility and do away with misconceptions about Church teaching.

LBB, Cliff Zarsky is very much alive and well in Corpus Christi and writing his almost daily anti-abortion letters to the editor in the Caller-Times. I've repeatedly asked him what he has done to take in one or more of these women with unwanted pregnancies and he has never responded. I sometimes think he just "talks to hear his head rattle" as my grandmother was so fond of saying.

Maryann, I didn't ask what the church was doing to help women with unwanted pregnancies. I asked what Mr. Tasin and Mr. Zarsky were doing. Now, if they are the "church", then I still question how they are helping. I think it must be wonderful to have an organization who when contacted by one of these mothers, is there to give financial and moral support. What I don't understand is what are the pro-lifers doing to help the women who don't contact them. Would there be ANY abortions if, instead of writing letters to the editor, these people were standing at the entrance to abortion clinics offering aid and support to these women? Probably not! What I'd really, really like to know is how many of these women Mr. Tasin and Mr. Zarsky have personally taken in and helped to prevent an abortion. I'll never get an answer to that because I don't believe they ever have. I also want to know what happens to these babies once they are born. Who takes care of them, nourishes their physical and moral needs? After all, they were unwanted before birth. Do Mr. Tasin and Mr. Zarsky find good, loving families to take these babies?

Maryann, I respect your views; but I honestly don't think you can answer for Mr. Tasin and Mr. Zarsky. If they truly cared about these unborn children, in my opinion, they would have solutions.

Can you back that up with factual evidence, or is that an unsubstantiated opinion?
The pro-lifers I know teach their children about chastity, and they are much too busy and content with helping their their immediate families, relatives, and communities to wring their hands or gnash teeth.

Pat, the pro-lifers are busy making sure our children practice abstinence instead of learning about ways to prevent pregnancy. they are also wringing their hands and gnashing their teeth that people don't have morals and use social services.

No I meant selling organs, In other words I can't sell my or any one else organs to someone that needs one, organ banks can't either , in other words the people with the most $$$ can't move there loved one to the top of the transplant list.

I didn't say anything about harvesting organs from aborted infants. Which I've never heard of either.

President Clinton lifted the ban on using fetal body parts in research in 1992 by executive order. As I recall, a group called Life Dynamics was behind a Senate investigation and hearings on the trafficking in fetal body parts.
http://catholiceducation.org/articles...

I would think that President Bush would have reinstated the ban, but it's kind of like a yo-yo with Obama coming in now.

Sorry, Legion. I did read your first post.

Many who do advocate abortion have no problem with late-term harvesting of organs.

You made your position clear in your post. Mea culpa

And if I remember right there is a federal ban, against selling organs anyway and lots of other countries have followed suit, NOT all of them tho.

Late term abortions? No never, go back and read my first post.

Very true , another good point, seems like there was a case years ago about death row inmates and organ donation.

I think that the chemicals could be altered, so the organs could be acceptable.

My point is that death-row inmates who've committed multiple horrendous murders still are afforded some type of dignity and they don't have their organs snatched from them against their will.

Late-term babies whose organs are sold don't aren't given any dignity, even though they are human, alive, and have unique and unreplaceable DNA.

It's a case of the stronger overpowering the weak, and I think Mr. Brown would agree with that, and say... tough luck.

Might makes right.

Good point,

But I thought I have read somewhere that because of the chemicals used death row prisoners organs or more or less useless, I could be wrong tho.

And that's a whole different subject (maybe) like the ban on selling organs.

Of course almost two years ago when my daughter gave birth, her mom cut the cord, the doctor asked my daughter if she wanted to donate it, she looked at me, I said yes.

Then both grandmas looked at me, there serious church people, and I said there just going to throw it away anyhow, that was the end of the discussion.

I kind of see your point, Legion, as I am a utilitarian as well, and Darwinian principles make some sense to me, BUT....
And this is a big but....
What about taking the organs from death row prisoners, Legion, since they are going to die anyway? It would be efficient, they are stripped of some rights already, and would benefit society.

Hello Pat,

You ask what is the Church doing before the abortion besides protesting. I'm glad you asked that question!

Our local diocese (this is statewide, also) has a program called the Gabriel Project which gives women and girls one-on-one counseling and help. The number is 1-866-627-9243.

You can also go to www.gabrielproject.com

For both the mother and the baby, before and after the birth, this is much like a Good Samaritan operation, using trained volunteers who are definitely concerned and caring about both, not just the mother, and not just the child.

The Gabriel Project helps fininacially, with food, clothing, and offers home assistance for women who have experienced domestic abuse, child support problems, even help with breast feeding.

All of the help is provided in the Victoria area, but referals can be made for people who are not in the Victoria area. When a girl or woman calls the Gabriel Project, she is paired with an "angel" who is a trained volunteer to help her through this trying time as well as after the birth.

Currently, the Catholic Churches in the Victoria Diocese, in observance of National Right to Life Week, are sponsoring a drive and collection for formula, diapers, baby beds, baby bed sheets, and anything that a mother can use before or after she gives birth.

This is not just a one-week time of collecting, as it goes on year-round, but because of the anniversary of Roe v. Wade this week and the Pro-Life marches in town and Washington, D.C. this is being spotlighted now.

Also, women who need help before their baby is born can contact the Perpetual Help Home. Sister Perpetua Hawes was either the founder or one of the founders of this home for neglected and abused women.

Mr. Brown states an absolute faslehood when he says that the Catholic Church fights for the baby and then abandons it to the state to rear it up.

Locally, the Gabriel Project is an example which refutes that unfortunate falsehood.

ME myself and I don't agree with abortion except in limited cases ( incest, rape). However since abortion is legal I see no reason at all to not use the stem cells for research.

So after the wrong of a abortion has been done just incinerate whats left of the poor ( insert your choice of terms here) and not use it to do some good for humankind?

That argument has never made any sense to me.

Nickelsworth, I agree that Mr. Brown's logic is WAY off. And he threw some falsehood in there to boot. I'd say this is a DIFFERENT viewpoint.

He uses God demanding the life Abraham's son and Jesus giving up his own life for mankind, then calls for women to render their children to Caesar? How can Caesar (the state) all of a sudden equate God?

Yep, he says putting the "privilege of the one before the rights of many" demands that women offer up their children to die by abortion. Of course, the child has no "choice" in the matter.

Also, he calls for not legislating morals, but then turns around and advocates the marketing of fetal baby parts which bring in huge profits. But it takes legislating his moral relativism to get this done. State and federal laws abound in which both those for and against selling baby parts from abortions lobby and influence.

Why the onesidedness?

Another case of pro-lifers bieng told to keep quiet so the pro-abortion people can legislate and peddle their moral relativism. Ain't gonna happen.

Yep, my kids belong to God. I pray that I will get to enjoy them as long as possible, but God knows how selfish I am, and forgives me regularly for that sin.

A STUDY IN LOGIC is needed by Mr. Brown. He states that common sense dictates that life begins at conception, but a "'fetus' does not pass the definition of life. It doesn't breathe on its own, feed itself, reproduce or fulfill any of the other criteria to be considered life."

Excuse me, but you are now talking about a newborn all the way up to a five year old. I know highschoolers and college age kids who cannot take care of themselves. What about those who have suffered from some accident or disease? The elderly? What about those who are infertile, post menopausal? Who is Mr. Brown that he says these people do not meet the criteria to be considered life.

Mr. Brown also comments that the "church fights for the baby and then abandons it to the state to rear it up....seems like the affairs of the body belong to the body politic. ...Jesus said "Render to Caesar what is Caesar's...from Jesus' lips: Abortion belongs to Caesar.

WHAT? REALLY? WWII Germany and China today did and do believe that children are wards of the state. They decide who will contribute to society and who will not, who will be a burden to the state and who will not. They decide who will live and who will not. China today tells parents if they can or cannot have children. If they disobey, they fix that and force them to abort their child up to birth.

If children are owned by the state, they can be used for body parts, testing, experiments and etc. FYI, in China there is an abundance of available body parts for transplant. They just go to the local prison and see who matches.

We can not question the state because they would only do what is 'best' for the majority, right? Render to Caesar...


Mr. Brown states that stem cells, euthanasia, genetic manipulation, contraception, cryogenics and cloning belong to the states, but cloning scares him. Why? If the state is to be trusted with euthanasia, genetic manipulation and etc., then why not cloning? why not genetic engineering? If they own our bodies, just not our souls, why not?

Life is the most fundamental right. Without it there are no other rights.
My children were created by God, and I will render them to God. My Children are not wards of the state.

I guess I'll never, ever get an answer to my question. Just an exercise in futility.

You have no right to judge anyone, or "think" that you know why they feel the way they do, just like I am not going to judge you for the way you think about abortion.

N45BA, if response was to me, you have no right judging me, or assuming that I think a certain way, just because it doesn't jive with what you think on the matter. I was just pointing out the obvious.

Here's something to think about. Since the Catholic Church is "supposed" to have come directly from Jesus and His disciples, then why was abortion allowed for the first 40 or 80 days? For over 1800 years, the Church did not believe that life/soul started at conception???
There is one thing about Jesus's Law that is known. It does not change. So, by their own history, the Church's rules are nothing more than humans changing the rules. Here's an insert from a site...

..."However, the belief that life begins at conception does not have clear support from medical science, the Bible, religious tradition or legal tradition. Early Christians apparently did not view abortion as murder until well beyond conception. In the thirteenth century, Catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas wrote that a soul enters the body at 40 days after conception for males and 80 days for females. That became church doctrine for many centuries, and abortion before the time of ensoulment was not considered a mortal sin. The belief that life begins at conception apparently has its origins in an 1869 decree by Pope Pius IX that abortion at any point in pregnancy was cause for excommunication.3,4

English common law apparently tolerated abortion until "quickening," the first detectable fetal movements, around the fifth month. Similarly, abortion was largely unregulated in the U.S. until the mid 1800s. Laws against abortion were passed around 1900, but the primary reasons had to do with the injuries and deaths resulting from unskilled abortions and a struggle between opposing factions for control of medical practice.5"...

My question has been and will always be "where are the pro-lifers before the abortion?" Are they just out lining Navarro with signs protesting a woman's right to choose or are they actually taking the young woman contemplating abortion, giving her a home, preparing for the birth of the baby and helping with adoption after the birth? Cliff Zarsky in Corpus Christi is another of these zealots and has never responded to my question of "what are you doing to prevent abortion?" I think it is because they DO NOTHING! It is just so easy to sit back and run your mouth and judge and condemn others and then not take any action to resolve the problem, isn't it, Mr. Tasin and Mr. Zarsky?

Interesting article Mr. Brown.

I have to say this: I was born and raised in a very devout Catholic Home. I went to Catholic School. There are many doctorines I embrace and hold very dear. But there are some that I find hypocritical, sexist and antiquated.

I would never choose to have an abortion, but I wouldn't vilify someone who did. They would have their reasons for making that choice and ultimately answer to God and God alone.

I find it difficult to believe that the God I know, santifies the bombings of abortion clinics; the threats to employees of Planned Parenthood; the violent protests ---
Supporting programs such as Project Gabriel, and Perpetual Help Home would be much more rewarding than protesting Planned Parenthood.

I often wander how people get so confused. Especially people who are very well educated. I will try to reply later in detail to the myrid of falsehoods in your article. For now I'm going to Mass and I will remember to pray for you.