Just looking at the number of posts on this thread shows me that a public debate/discussion between Don Mader and Matt Ocker would be interesting to say the least.

Matt,

"Telling us lowly private citizens that we simply don't measure up to the fine members of law enforcement is not a proper display of respect."

I AM a lowly private citizen.

Your comments are disrespectful of Cops. They deserve just as much respect (if not more) because they INTENTIONALLY put their lives on the line for YOU.

Even your comment about fatality statistics and dangerous jobs was disrespectful. Equating some construction guy who gets himself killed through ignoring some safety regulation to an officer lost in the line of duty by putting himself intentionally in the line of fire to protect the innocent.

Lets not forget these gems either:
"Maybe some cops should walk a mile in our shoes - you know, those shoes that actually get a speeding ticket, rather than flashing a badge and getting let off the hook.
(Flashing a badge and asking to be let off is the surest way a cop can garauntee that he WILL get a ticket.)
Or those of us that actually get arrested for DWI when we have been drinking and get pulled over.
(Cops who have been caught DWI also get arrested, your comment is anecdotal.)
Then of course, there is always the "domestic disturbance" at a cop's house that results in no arrests.
(There are many calls that are dispatched as "Domestic Disturbance" on arrival, many of them are just people arguing and no actual law broken. no arrests made. This is for "lowly Private Citizens" as well as cops off duty. When ACTUAL laws are violated, even cops will get arrested for Domestic violence. Again you are making anecdotal statements as insulting facts against officers.)

It used to be the abbreviation for Houston Power and Light.

To both Matt and Wayward.

You two are on here telling cops how to do their jobs and you dont even know what the HPL is?

LMAO!!!!!!!

WWW,

Interesting that you should bring up "ignorance of the law". Am I the only person that thinks it's ludicrous that for citizens, "ignorance of the law is no excuse", yet for LE officers, they can always hide behind the "Good Faith Clause"?

Call me crazy, but when it is your job to know the law, why am I held to a higher standard than you are? I don't expect my customers to know my job more thorough;y thsn I, and I would be fired if they did. Seems odd, since I have no authority to relieve anyone of their freedom.

Don...I don't bash all cops. By and large, the investigators and detectives here in town do a good job. The problem guys -- I've no experience with female cops in Victoria -- are the uniformed patrol officers who are the ones I refer to as revenooers; the ones who write tickets for minor infractions because they can. Notice that I've never accused anyone of issueing a ticket to someone who was totally innocent of the infraction charged; I have no direct knowlege that happens here in Victoria, although when it comes to court and a he said/he said situation developes, I don't believe a judge will ever believe the citizen over the cop.

I don't think there is much hope for citizens when the police decide to target an area for "zero tolerance" enforcement. There are simply too many laws and ordinances for a citizen to not inadvertantly run afoul of one/some. Ignorance of the law may not be a legal defense, but it is a fact. This is where revenue generation comes in. The cops seem to have never heard of a warning, telling citizens -- in reality, their employers -- that they are in violation of section xxx.xx and if they don't take corrective action, tickets will be forthcoming. No, we can't do that; we will issue tickets for everything we see. It would be interesting to know what the shift supervisors tell the officers going out on patrol.

I like living in Victoria. Since moving here from Houston, my wife and I have enjoyed life here rather than the pace in Houston. Because I like the city, I'd hate to see it get the reputation that other cities (strangely, all on Hwy 59) such as Kendelton, Patton Village and Splendora. Those towns all have police departments that have been notorious for being revenue agencies for the city.

Don,

I, myself have not had a problem with local LE departments.

For simply stating a obscure city ordinance and posting former positions held, and a snippet of a VA article, of the current Chief of Police s qualifications, you jump to the conclusion that I am a LE basher.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

As I suggested before, maybe your enthusiasm to discredit the DA is clouding your judgment just a bit.

Don,

I think it has been made very clear that folks that you named above do not have any comprehension of what policing is.

I am by no means saying that all cops are good. I have seen the bad, and it saddens me!

Exresident: If you read my example again, I did say that it was possible that the person was just someone out walking, enjoying the day. A good cop is alway suspicious!

DonMader,

I consider the source when I am called a cop hater by a constantly brown nosing apologist for all things police like yourself and others in here.

I think most people fear the cops, and when pulled over, they are scared, timid, submisive, and admit being in the wrong whether they were or not. With me, the officer sets the tone from the time he makes contact. Respect is a two way street, and respect is earned, not owed. I am respectful, but if a cop gets snarky with me, to use your words, I'm gonna be a smart-mouth jackass. I admit I have a sharp tongue, and a quick wit at times, and I don't cower just because someone has a gun and a badge. I think some cops call it contempt of cop. In law enforcement circles, a person standing up for his rights is often confused for being a trouble maker. Cops sometimes like to get in your face to take control and charge of the situation. If you aren't intimidated, they take it as a slap in their face. Don't tell me ther aren't some snarky cops, because I know there are.

Myself and others who post in here might be representative of far greater numbers than you care to acknowledge. If we are, don't you think it's healthy to get it out in the open rather than it be whispered all over town?

DonMader,

Hope you read the new letter today. My suspicions were realized when the person actually receiving the ticket stated in their letter:

Our complaint was merely our opinion. We feel that this so called "Zero Tolerance Policy" could have been implemented differently. The "Zero Tolerance Policy" is only in effect for the 3000-3200 block of Wildwood. This is where the 41 calls were generated. Everyone was wondering if we were involved in these calls, and the answer to that is "No."

I still wonder about the "policing" involved after 41 responses to the same block and the people actually receiving a ticket for a somewhat obscure violation had nothing to do with the actual problem.

How do you feel about this now?

Don,

Just what exactly is wrong with you? Are you so intelligent that there is NEVER any validity to what ANYONE ELSE EVER has to say? I have no doubt that there is extensive training involved in becoming a police officer. It is my contention that too often, the training goes in the wrong direction. Cops are taught through case law how to bend and manipulate Constitutional Rights. I find this practice to be abhorrent.

In 2008, I was threatened with arrest if I did not leave a polling place during an election. Why? Because an old teacher of mine was running for VISD Board of Directors, and I was in the parking lot asking people if they would like a personal and educational bio on my candidate of choice. While I was doing this, the incumbent drove by. He jumped out of his truck, shook his finger in my face, and told me I was going to be arrested. When the Officer arrived, he spoke with the election judge and the Elections Administrator. The EA told the Officer that he thought there was a VISD policy that prohibited electioneering. There is one HUGE problem with that though - when a school is being used as a polling place, its policies do not trump the TEC.

Anyway, so the Officer doesn't know what to do. I asked him to produce the law that prohibited what I was doing. He could not. His conclusion was that since the EA had told him VISD had a policy, and a current Board Member had launched a complaint, that I would be arrested for Criminal Trespass if I did not leave. Ipso facto, the Officer, who should have been in control of the situation, delegated his authority of arrest to the EA and the VISD Board member. In doing so, he prevented me from the unabated free exercise of my First Amendment Rights.

So why do I bring this up? Well, if the Officer would have been properly trained, he would know that he cannot arrest a citizen (particularly at a polling place) based on someone claiming there is a law out there that prohibits the present action. I did not want to sit out there all day arguing, nor did I want to go to jail. Looking back, I probably should have taken the trip downtown. At least that way, maybe something would have changed.

If you are OK with men with guns and badges threatening arrest of citizens who are breaking absolutely no laws at a polling place, then I really wish you would move. You might like Cuba.

I am not a cop-basher, but you are an unabashed cop apologizer. In your eyes, they can do no wrong. I am not asking for much. I only want grown men and women of civic mind to understand the ramifications of an arrest before they just arbitrarily slap the cuffs on. People's lives can get ruined in the process. I just want there to be a little more reverence for the average citizen. If you disagree, there is nothing left for us to discuss.

MattOcker,

So if they were better educated, there would very few complaints?

1. Just for fun, why don't you stop over at Victoria College some time and ask to review the Police Academy Curriculum? You know, see just what they're taught, since many current VPD officers have gone through the local Academy.

You also might want to chat with the VPD training officer and ask him about the on-going training and education requirements that officers go through annually. I'll bet you a cup of coffee, he'd be willing to discuss it with you.

2. After all the education you feel they should have, how are you gonna keep some of them from abusing their authority anyway, as has been suggested is the case many times in this forum?
How are you gonna weed out cops with "snotty attitudes" and peoples perceptions that they are just way too suspicious of ordinary folks. Aren't there always going to be some abusers of the system?

Please don't suggest a Civilian Review Board - I lived in cities, large and small, where that was tried and inevitably it evolved into a debacle of racial bias claims, even when the police officers were of the same ethnic background as the "victims".

3. Finally how are you going to keep some cops from becoming cynical after dealing with honest-to-god scumbags over the years? Do you really think that won't have an negative effect on THEIR perceptions? Wouldn't it on yours if you were in their shoes?

I like how you use the most extreme of examples in an attempt to prove your point. Do I have a solution? YES! I want every person who is licensed by this great State to carry a badge and a gun to know the Penal Code. I am not asking them to know case law, just the Penal Code. It is not that long or difficult to understand.

I find it unacceptable that the head of the Investigations Division for the VCSO is as misinformed as he is regarding Section 46.035 of the TX Penal Code. He and I went round and round one day about where I could and could not legally carry a weapon. The funny thing is that there are far more cops that are aware of the exemptions in the law that allow them additional rights than there are who know the extended rights of ordinary citizens. Nearly every cop out there knows of the Executive Order that Bush signed, which allows them the right to carry in all 50 states. At the same time, many cops have no idea what my rights are to carry, as a citizen. I find that unacceptable.

So the solution I have involves education. Not just the education of what they CAN do, but also what they CAN'T do. I think the Good Faith Clause has been hijacked and raped to death. These men and women are supposed to be professionals, right? How about reading the US Constitution. I think the Bill of Rights is fairly easy to understand, yet I read about it being violated nearly every week.

You may not agree with my solution, but you can't say I didn't offer one.

ThirdPartyObserver, legion357, thewaywardwind, Zorro, Hicktoria, exresident, MattOcker, etc., etc.
I’ve got a several questions for you:

!. Can you suggest an alternative to a police department/Sheriff’s Office?

2. If not, can you suggest a way to recruit and/or train police officers to ALWAYS be easy-going, light-hearted, un-suspicious, never be tired near the end of a long shift, not cynical after several years of dealing with people who beat their spouses, abuse little children, mug old people for a few bucks or burglarize a home to support a drug habit, drive drunk and kill innocent people, all while maintaining a smile and seeing the humor of some smart-mouth jackass cursing at them because they’ve been pulled over for speeding?

3. How many of you REALLY believe you could do a better job after three or four years of dealing with the type of folks mentioned in item #2 while never knowing when you might suddenly confront a REAL cop-hater who’s armed and having a bad day?

I mean really.....please tell me about a realistic alternative or how you would find and train such paragons of virtue. If you can’t, then it’s obvious to me (to borrow an O’Reilly favorite) that you’re all likely a bunch of lip-flapping bloviaters and you’re REEAAALLLY boring with your little horror stories of the abuse that may have been inflicted upon you ( please don’t bother to share them with me, just call the ACLU, okay?)

Willie has clearly exposed the "everyone a suspect" mindset that has poisoned modern policing.

Ahhhh Zorro! There are two sides to every story. I am not insinuating that your story is not true, but that is your account of what happened. The officer may have a totally different account of that day and his own reasons for doing what he did. Is it possible that he went a bit overboard? Sure, according to your account.

Police see things in an entirely different light than the average citizen.

Example: Mid afternoon and you are on your way home for lunch. You see a young man walking in the neighborhood and think to yourself...wow, I wish I could take a walk on such a nice day.

A police officer may see something different. Is it a juvenile skipping school? Perhaps someone scanning the neighborhood for an easy target to burglarize?

Now, it is possible that is really is just a young adult out for an afternoon stroll on a nice day, but once again, cops things slightly different.

I know I am not going to change your cop hating attitude. I really dont know why I have spent my time trying to argue the fact. But I will say this. There are good ones out there.

Willie,

I have many stories I can tell about my encounters with law enforcement. As one example, I will use my brush with a very young I.N.S officer in deep South Texas who was driving the fence looking for human tracks. I was late getting to Hebronville and blew past him doing about 80 mph. The I.N.S. officer pursued me with his emergency lights on and pulled me over. He walked to my car and told me he had pulled me over because I was speeding and seemed to be in a really big hurry about getting somewhere. I kid you not! I ask him what business my speeding was to him and if he was writing tickets for the Sheriff's Department? Angrily, he says to me to get out of the G.D. car, and I say something ugly back to him, then he claims I assaulted a federal officer and he calls pretty much the entire Jim Hogg Sheriff's Dept. to the scene, 5 units in total, one with a drug dog. I'm required to face away from my car while they pretty much do as they please without my consent. In the end, I'm told by the deputy who had taken over from the I.N.S. agent I was free to go, but no apologies. This is one of many stories I could tell you.

You write "I have yet to see you write a single comment on the Victoria Advocate that has anything decent to say about police." I'm a critic, I am not the public relations face for law enforcement, or as they say, I just report the news, I don't make the news. If people don't report things that happen, how will there ever be change?

Zorro, I could not agree with you more. I applaud that the United Airline crew did the right thing in your example.

I dont know where you get your distrust for police, nor do I expect you to tell us, but dont assume that all cops are bad. There are plenty of cops that choose to do the right thing, even when it may cause them to be an outcast.

I have yet to see you write a single comment on the Victoria Advocate that has anything decent to say about police. It just gets old...thats all. It really makes me wonder what your angle is or why you insist on bad mouthing police.

Willie,

Okay, I'll give it a rest and use a euphemism instead. All Muslims are not terrorists, but pretty much all terrorists are Muslims. You don't hear Muslim clerics condemn their own brother Muslim terrorists for fear of being seen as not pure Muslim. That in turn breeds cynicism from the public. There are many other examples where people don't rat out their brothers, so it was refreshing that the United Airlines crew ratted out that drunk pilot. Let it be a beacon for doing the right thing.

VictoriaConcernedCitizen-

The day that the VPD goes donations only, or service fees only will be the day that I agree with you. When citizens have a choice to fund (or not fund) the department, we'll be talking about a different situation entirely.

Until then...

I hope everyone is paying attention......this will shock my critics. Bruce Ure is the Chief of the Victoria Police Department. Until such time, if any time, that he is removed he IS the chief. Instead of tearing down the department that is charged with protecting us we should support them. CITY COUNCIL is where people should take their complaints, if any (again), of Ure's performance. Let the man do the job he is charged with.
I believe this is the path that should vbe taken.

Zorro, would you please give it a rest already? Your cop bashing is getting old! We get it...you have a complete distrust for cops.

Hermandad de Pistoleros Latinos

http://davadnai.users.omniglobal.net/...

Matt,

Lighten up a bit. No need to take a simple comment that I made and turn it into more than what it really is. What I meant by the comment is that there are a select few on here that are set in their ways...No point in arguing and trying to prove a point.

The Blue Code of Silence (or Blue Wall of Silence) is an unwritten rule among many police officers in the United States not to report on another colleague's errors, misconducts or crimes.

Ironically, it is similar to the code of silence in organized crime, like the Omertà.

On an intersting sidenote, a couple of years ago I was speaking with former VPD Chief Braaten about a few things, and he gave me a disturbing statistic. He told me that at that time, there were X number of law enforcement officials in TX, and X number was under indictment on felony charges. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was slightly over 1%. I feel pretty confident that we never have 1% of our citizenry under felony indictment, and I think everyone can admit that it is less likely that cops would even be arrested, much less charged and indicted, versus private citizens.

I didn't intend my comment in that manner. just wanted to convey the point that respect is a two-way street. Telling us lowly private citizens that we simply don't measure up to the fine members of law enforcement is not a proper display of respect.

Yesterday, a drunk United Airlines pilot was arrested at Heathrow airport just prior taking off on a trans-Atlantic flight. The drunk pilot was reported by other members of the crew. You think a cop would report a fellow cop for something like that?

I was wondering the same thing, but I didn't want anyone to waste their time.

John...:Three HPL members were just given life sentences moments ago. Are we going to hear about that?"

Forgive my ignorance, please. HPL members???? Uhhh, who/what is HPL and for what did three members get life sentences?

Bubblehead,

I wouldn't waste my time.

Advocate,

Three HPL members were just given life sentences moments ago. Are we going to hear about that? Doubt it.

Jones,

Brother, you had a good thing going there, then you ruined it. The antagonsim similar to what you displayed is the very reason why a number of people have issues with law enforcement. Maybe some cops should walk a mile in our shoes - you know, those shoes that actually get a speeding ticket, rather than flashing a badge and getting let off the hook. Or those of us that actually get arrested for DWI when we have been drinking and get pulled over. Then of course, there is always the "domestic disturbance" at a cop's house that results in no arrests.

Most of us just ask for a little courtesy. Most of us just ask to be treated like adults. Most of us just ask that you understand that citizens are not here to bow down and worship at your feet. You have no authority over me unless I have committed a crime. Maybe cops should understand that some of the rest of us also live stressful lives. The rest of us have to put up with jerks. Heck, virtually every job I have ever had has a higher mortality rate that that of a cop, so you can't even use the "dangerous" line on me.

(Part 2)

cont...
The second situation I mentioned is Domestic Disturbance. I am referring here to anything from a husband and wife fighting to neighbors arguing over loud music. Any sort of police call where two sets of "Fake Bad Guys" are upset with each other rather than a real crime scene.

In this sort of situation the same "maintain control" priorities are there just as they are for a traffic stop. Also just as in the traffic stop the arriving officers dont know if this is just normal people upset or whether some are criminals and perhaps with warrants.

But even more so than the inconvenienced driver, these are people who are emotionally upset. some are outright distraught and angry. People do very VERY stupid things during those times and it is even more important than ever for a cop to stay in control. sometimes that even requires an officer to tell a lady to "SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP!" especially when that lady is running on and on and not listening to the officer, who is trying to get to the bottom of the situation.

Also in these situations both sides are "Always right" so the situation can never be solved to all parties satisfaction. this leaves at least one side stating "the Officer did not do his job"

You know the old saying about "walking a mile in the other person's shoes"?

Most of you naysayers on here aren't fit to take a step in let alone walk a mile in an Officer's shoes.

(Part 1)
Wayward,
you wrote: "As I have stated, I don't have a problem with them coming down like a ton of bricks on real bad guys, but some -- especially uniformed patrol officers, perhaps because those are the ones most citizens come in contact with -- can be real [bleep] for no reason other than because they can"

what you fail to realize is that "real bad guys" look no different than "fake bad guys".

two sorts of instances that result in the "fake bad guys" e.g. regular citizens thinking the cops are rude, overbearing, etc..

Traffic stops.
Domestic disurbances.

In a traffic stop, the cop has no way of knowing who the driver is until they make contact. and even then they dont know if what this speeder is fleeing a crime scene or just late to a hot date. A "Regular Joe" could be just on his way home from work or he could have warrants for his arrest. Even worse, he could have just committed a crime that no one knows about but the driver will assume thats why he was stopped. A cop has to ABSOLUTELY INSURE that he maintains control of the situation. They do that by having a commanding and forceful presense. And even when that driver is just a normal Joe on his way home, they are oft the ones who start out with a 'tude towards the cops about "Why aren't they out catching "real Bad Guys".

This 'tude the driver takes forces the officer to increase his forceful presence to maintain control because after all is said and done, the officer has but one goal, to go home to his/her family at the end of the day and not the morgue.

Are there a few rookie cops that dont quite yet have the nack of knowing just how much forceful presence is too much? Sure there are.

Is there perhaps one or two cops that do take it too far because they can as you suggest. I am sure there are those too.

What I am saying is that the vast majority of cops with attitudes are not that at all but rather a reflection of the pissy nature of those who are pulled over.

Matt...I've done my ride alongs, thank you with VPD and EMS back when I worked for the PD as a 911 dispatcher. I've seen first hand just how charlie sierra a cop can get when he's in a "mood." Then about four years ago, I met the charlie sierra first hand and that cemented my attitude. As I have stated, I don't have a problem with them coming down like a ton of bricks on real bad guys, but some -- especially uniformed patrol officers, perhaps because those are the ones most citizens come in contact with -- can be real p****s for no reason other than because they can.

DonMader,

You make some good points. Your point about Tyler is something I can agree with. In recent weeks, I have found myself involved in conversations concerning Mr. Tyler. Second possibly to only you and your group, I think Mr. Tyler would have no person he would rather see accused of a crime than me. But I do think Mr. Tyler has a lot of integrity in that area. Even though I wrote two scathing letters to the editor about Mr. Tyler, and he and I both made some unflattering remarks about on eanother in the Advocate, he has done nothing to exact revenge. He has not had me targeted by police. He has not called or visited my home. To my knowledge he doesn't go around bad-mouthing me. We had our disagreement, and I think we are both content in being resolved to the fact that we are not going to sway the opinion of the other.

Secondly, you make a very good point about citizens becoming involved with the Civilian Police Academy. In the past, I have been guilty of being too adversarial in my approach to various people. I have found that if you can engage them, become accustomed to their perspective, and get to know them, it becomes far easier to find a common ground. A police officer is no different than a Mayor, County Commissioner, or anyone else when it comes to having an easier time in getting your point across if there is a personal relationship.

Hicktoria, waywardwind, et al,

Based on your obvious expertise, you all have your opinions on how the VPD should be run. But let me share an idea with you: The VPD puts on a course for interested folks called the Civilian Police Academy. The course is 10 weeks long (6pm to 9pm on Tuesday plus two Saturdays. The classes cover all aspects of local police work from traffic control to drug stings to detective work to dealing with gangs. There's lots of hand-on training, including how to safely make a traffic stop, to doing a building search in the dark with a flash light. On one of the Saturdays, students go out to the police firing range and use PD service pistols. Students also get to do ride alongs (day or night)on regular patrol duty.

When it's all done, I guarantee you'll have a lot more insight into how things actually work. You may still have some legitimate concerns about how and why the VPD operates, but you'll be able to speak from a basis of real knowledge and facts, and not from some half-baked rumors, half truths and uneducated biases. The next class begins in mid January.

Or, on the other hand, you can continue to sit around and and make holier than thou pronouncements about how YOU think the department should be run and/or take more cheap shots at the Chief.

Of course taking the class would mean putting your money (time, actually) where your mouth is.

DonMader,

The recent police chase and subsequent remarks by the sheriff about his cars catching a BMW got the crowd on a BMW forum cracking wise. There was some pretty funny posts and it's not just your VPD sacred cow that people make cracks about. Check that BMW forum out about the chase and the Sheriff's remarks:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthr...

Mader - I do not "hate" the VPD. I think they lead from example (insert Ure). It is not a cheap shot. It is obvious (IMO) that the VPD has far too much time on their hands worrying about minute things rather than real crimes. I know you know all of the examples that could be posted, so I will not bother with that...

Don..."He stated that the PD was trying to deal with a complicated situation in the neighborhood (read five families who enjoy making life miserable for their neighbors that probably fear retaliation). It's difficult to catch on-going, petty vandalism in the act before it escalates into something really unhappy, including serious and/or deadly physical violence."

Perhaps I missed it, but did the infamous ticket go to one of the five families that seem to be causing so much trouble? If so, do you really think that thugs and criminal wannabes will take note of a PARKING TICKET? If this is really all the police department can offer, then my suggestion to the people on the receiving end of the vandalism and whatever else the cops have been called out for is to sit up at night, outside with a shotgun waiting for a chance to catch the thugs doing that which the police seem powerless to stop.

I don't have a problem with the police coming down on thugs like a falling wall. I have a problem with the police targeting harmless infractions that cost innocent people a lot of money and cliam that they're doing it in the name of community policing, sort of "showing the flag" to make the community safer. That's a crock of what Farmer Brown spreads on his garden.

Hicktoria,

Nice (but typical), cheap shot from another nether region while hiding behind a phony name and a cutesy avatar (see previous posts).

Yawn...HoHum.....ZZzzzzzzz

Applause for VPD! I wonder why this did not make national news? I am so upset that the nation did not take notice on this awesome well staked out parking violation! What a tragedy that could of happened... if a child walked around this obstruction and interrupted the other kids playing football in the street while dodging cars...

I for one am glad that VPD busted these criminals red-handed. Let that be a lesson to them. If they are going to park on their property, maybe next time they should exercise a little more caution in how they do it.

Some of this scum never learns until you hit 'em where it hurts (the wallet)!

Zorro,

I was talking about people who are deliberately ignorant - i.e., those who choose to accept and then repeat ANY blather that agrees with their own particular biases without bothering to check the facts.

As for painting a target on one's back, do you not think that the good DA would find some way to take a shot (figuratively speaking of course) at me? I'd guess he may have friends on the DPS who might be watching for my license plate number in order to find numerous vehicular violations but I seriously doubt it.

If you think that I would get a free ride from a VPD officer because I've stuck up for the Chief, and that you would be unfairly jammed because you're a critic of the VPD, well, I believe you're wrong about that (and I know for a fact that I haven't gotten a free ride - it was my poor choice to be in the wrong, and I knew it and I paid the penalty for it.)

But it's ok for you since I think you sincerely (if incorrectly) believe that VPD will be waiting for you if they knew who you were. On the other hand, I don't think the rest of the aforementioned cop dislikers are paranoid, they just prefer to take anonymous cheap shots.

DonMader,

Thanks for saying the delete button needs a rest. It is my understanding that 12 step programs exist for virtually everything under the sun and the term has entered the lexicon of common usage.

To whom it may concern that's doing the censoring today. It doesn't bother me that Zorro suggested I'm in a 12 step program and I don't know why his remark was deleted - so lighten up a little bit. I'm not in any formal 12 step program, only the self-imposed one that I mentioned in my last post.

Bubbles,

You apparently think "whining to the paper" is wrong, and all criticism of police should go through official police channels. Seems as though the chief is pretty much on the record as saying if citizen's don't like it, lump it, and take it to court, Municipal Court no less. That attitude belies your friendly complaint center down at the cop shop.

Mader,

Am I ignorant because I don't agree with you, and because I hold different opinions? How do you define ignorance in here? You accuse us of being "cowardly bullies that snipe from behind cover." So you suggest we paint a target on our back so that some obscure law might be applied to us lawbreakers, thanks, but no thanks. Get a common sense clue from Thomas Paine!

Zorro,

Yes I am in fact - my remedial twelve step program is about learning to accept the fact that in one way or another, I'll always be dealing with people who either deliberately choose to remain ignorant, or are unabashedly pompous and arrogant, or who sadistically misuse power, or who are cowardly bullies that snipe from behind cover or are all of the above. I'm not having much luck with the program as I still allow people like that to irritate me from time to time.

The upside is, that there are a lot more good folks around then those listed above. I include people that I may strongly disagree with about some things, because I believe that they are, at least, good-hearted and sincere, however misguided I might feel they may be.

Waywardwind,

It may help to reread the Chief's article to see why I think spitting anywhere has nothing to do with the reaction Ure's letter and what he's trying to accomplish, therefore to me, a discussion about spitting, whether illegal or just plain rude, was gratuitous/irrelevant - he was not out to enforce obscure laws.

He stated that the PD was trying to deal with a complicated situation in the neighborhood (read five families who enjoy making life miserable for their neighbors that probably fear retaliation). It's difficult to catch on-going, petty vandalism in the act before it escalates into something really unhappy, including serious and/or deadly physical violence. If the police are making their presence known with a zero tolerance approach, it would appear to me that they want to send a message to some miscreants that the pressure is going to be on, some special attention will be paid - it may be "just" a parking ticket so far, but at least an attempt is being made to resolve a miserable situation.

To further the humor that wayward and Legion started here, Let me give a couple more examples of dumb laws. Earlier I stated that Florida was the worst for stupid laws....

A special law prohibits unmarried women from parachuting on Sunday or she shall risk arrest, fine, and/or jailing

It is considered an offense to shower naked.

Having sexual relations with a porcupine is illegal.
(there was enough need that they actually had to pass a law against that?)

You are not allowed to break more than three dishes per day, or chip the edges of more than four cups and/or saucers.

Oh and back to Texas...
It is illegal to take more than three sips of beer at a time while standing.

(part 2)
"I am also questioning why major (class I) crimes are on the increase but the focus of policing seems to be on minor issues like parking tickets and sting operations that make headlines. We don't need headline crimefighting or explanation editorials we need the class I crimes to decline."

That last sentence I can agree with you on. I think we all can agree we need Class I crimes to decline.

Hoever you sstill are not seeing that what is in the publics eye is a function of the media, not the police. The police are constantly busting people for class I crimes as well as everything else. Police work is not an either/or proposition. They are going after BOTH KINDS of crimes. The serious violent crimse as well as violations and what one would call white collar crimes.

You post from a position of "If they are going after minor crimes then they are ignoring serious crimes."
That is an UNTRUE statement and I believe, intentionally misleading on your part.

"My point is (I will type slow so you can understand) 41 calls to the same 5 houses should produce something more then a parking ticket. If there is that much activity taking place and officers are there that many times the laws of probability would dictate illegal activity much greater then a parking violation would be identified."

I guess you missed John 123's comment when Wayward seconded your question and he reported that "it did".

The problem here is that only the one set of residents went "whining to the paper" rather than work in official channels. Don't blame the police for the media's sensationalistic mindset.

Your whining on here reminds me of the driver who whines to the cop about "Why are you bothering with me rather than catching real criminals." How do you think cops catch most of those "real criminals"? Individuals with warrants don't go around with neon signs on their back saying "arrest me"!
They get arrested on warrants after having been contacted by police on other more minor issues, like a traffic or parking violation.

(part 1)
I took Wayward's and Legion's comments on obscure city ordinances for what it was.
Humor.
With a little searching you can find thousands of obscure laws that are outright stupid. None more so than the state of Florida. Texas has some doozies as well for example:

"When two trains meet each other at a railroad crossing, each shall come to a full stop, and neither shall proceed until the other has gone."

Or:
"An anticrime law requires criminals to give their victims 24 hours notice, either orally or in writing, and to explain the nature of the crime to be committed."

Go to dumblaws.com for more hilarity.

3PO's comments however need addressing.

"My point is if there was as much effort to deal with crime as there is to have the chief of police on the news or writing editorials some positive steps would be made."

So you think just once in a blue moon, writing up a column is all the effort that the police department does to combat crime? Tell that to the officers working day in and out 12 hour shifts 7 days a week putting their lives on the line to keep you safe.

Your comment is without merit, rude, and insulting to all officers on the force. (and you claim to NOT be against the officers, just the Chief)

"We see headlines of year long "sting operations" to combat alledged gambling (not a class I crime) and then no convictions. Now major news coverage of writing a ticket for a parking violation (again not a class I crime) but nothing mentioned about how many arrests related to 41 calls to the same neighborhood."

What is and isn't covered by the news you can blame on the news services, namely the Advocate. not on the police. Just because it isn't covered in as much depth as other stories is an Editorial decision by the paper, not an enforcement issue of the police.

Your criticism is misplaced and again, insulting to all officers.

"I am just questioning why the chief has been appointed to be the official spokesman when the city is paying a huge sum of money to have a PIO?"

You are just using the PIO as an excuse to bash the Chief. Where were you when the DA took out multiple articles bashing away at the police and the Chief was silent? Where were you when the DA was using outright libelous phrases like "They are used to operating outside the law", etc.. Where were you when the DA was crying foul and playing the victim of police (specifically the Chief) of bashing him publicly and all the chief ever said was "We are working to resolve the issue"?

No 3PO. You can say all you want to the contrary but your actions speak louder than words. You say you dont bash the cop and that you are not a 'cop-hater' yet every thing you post is merrily bashing away at all police, not just the Chief.

Yes there are multiple ways to use the word 'but'. The way you used it however is exactly as I stated. negating everything that came before.

DonMader...I'm glad you were able to laugh. I always like to make someone smile. Evidently, you were too busy laughing to realize that my question about spitting on the sidewald was really serious. If the cops are gonna write tickets for people breaking one obscure law, I'm confident they will write tickets for breaking other obscure laws and I was wondering if spitting on the sidewalk was a legal offense or simply rude.

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

Legion357, I wasn’t laughing at your “humorous” rendition of the obscure ordinances, I was laughing AT you and waywardwind. As to why I support Chief Ure, I know him, I like him and he’s never given me reason to distrust him (the DA, however has given many people plenty of reasons to distrust him, but I digress). I defend the Chief when folks on this forum take cheap shots at him while hiding behind phony names and cutesy avatars. It’s really easy for you, waywardwind, and 3po to spout self-righteous and indignant remarks all while maintaining, like 3po, that he has “the greatest respect and admiration for ALL (?) of the officers on the police force, sheriff's department....”

I guess he doesn’t consider the Chief to be an officer. I’m still wondering how 3po correlates the chief’s editorial as being too political since he isn’t running for office. M…a…y…b…e….. . I ..‘…m….. j…u…s…t….. t…o…o…o…… s…l…o…w..... t…o…..c…a…t…c…h….. o…n…! Or maybe he’s speaking from the nether region as usual. I’m glad I’m not the only one who got Doug C’s name wrong - I really should have known better since I used to work for the City - my bad.

Now Zorro is a different case altogether – he really believes that some people are out to get him or at least would be if they knew who he is based on his remarks here on the forum (or so he has stated in the past). Perhaps so, they say “even paranoids have enemies.” Note to Zorro, et al – I can take the heat altho’ you can’t seem to - come out from behind the mask and cape – it feels really good to be confident enough to identify yourself when you speak your piece. Perhaps you all should stay out of the kitchen.

Ah well....they also say that it's easy to talk the talk but much harder to walk the walk.

President Harry S. Truman famously said "if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen!"

Memo to Chief Ure and Don Mader: STAY OUT OF THE KITCHEN!

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

Hit the "post comment" before I re-read my typing. I intended to type Doug Cochran not Dale Cochran.

DonMader,

I am not a [cop "disliker”] as you referred to in your post which again ignores the facts, your normal mode of operation.

My point is (I will type slow so you can understand) 41 calls to the same 5 houses should produce something more then a parking ticket. If there is that much activity taking place and officers are there that many times the laws of probability would dictate illegal activity much greater then a parking violation would be identified.

A 5% INCREASE in Class I crimes (major crimes against people and property) accompanied by a 6% DECREASE in arrests has merit and is the core of my questions. Every department in the city must prioritize their resources and I don't consider the chief "addressing the public" in an editorial as a good use of time. I don't know who Glen Cochran is, again accurate facts don't seem to matter to you, but this is totally different then if Mr. James or Dale Cochran are interviewed for a news article. I see the chief on the televised news and in the newspaper at a rate much higher then any previous chief, the sheriff, the fire chief or any other city department head and this exposure is not having any impact on major crimes. My opinion is these "appearences" are political in nature, not functional. Crime fighting against major crimes must take precedent over parking violations and alledged gambling activities.

I have the greatest respect and admiration for all of the officers on the police force, sheriff's department and firefighters as they are charged with doing a difficult job with limited resources. My concerns are there are politics involved in the chief being such a public figure and those politics are not in the best interest of the citizens and taxpayers of Victoria.

Well Don, since you where all-a-twitter with glee over obscure city ordinances... I guess my point was successful.

Your opinion of the local DA is well known and obvious. Talk about beating a dead horse.

Can I ask you a question?

Just because you have a obvious dislike of the local DA, why do you jump to the defense of the local Chief of Police at every opportunity?

After all the most important position that the local Chief of Police attained before being hired by the City of Victoria, was as a Fire Chief in Webster and later the top cop in Watauga. Where by the way he left City Manager of Watauga Kerry Lacy wondering what was exactly happening...

Apr. 27--Watauga City Manager Kerry Lacy has heard the news that his city's top law enforcement officer is leaving. He just hasn't heard it from the chief.

It's interesting that sword waving Zorro and the rest of the D.A. apologists are upset that the Police chief is trying to set the record straight after the typical "professional" job of reporting by Advocate staff. I suspect that Ure was also trying to head off the usual cries of discrimination and/or profiling by putting the facts in front of the public. The Advocate reporter seemed to have had difficulty doing basic research. For instance, the extent the PD went to, in trying to resolve some neighborhood problems and keep things from getting out of hand by holding a neighborhood meeting, going door-to-door to talk to area residents, etc. – in other words, taking a positive approach to the problem.

In the eyes of the our regular cop "dislikers”, nothing the PD does is ever worthwhile. Instead, 3PO apparently believes that only the PIO can speak for City dept. heads (Guess Jerry James, Glen Cochran, etc. need to shut up). 3PO then natters on about the 41 complaint calls and just one citation – apparently he has difficulty comprehending that it’s difficult to catch someone in the act at complaint calls – but that doesn’t mean that there wasn’t a valid reason for the complaint call in the first place. Should the police have stopped responding after the third or twelfth or twenty-fifth call?

By the way, I’m not sure how 3PO’s weird insinuation that “chief's position has become way more political then it should“ has anything to do with the situation other than just another chance to take a cheap shot.

Then of course, waywardwind jumps in with a wildly clever discourse on spitting, aided and abetted by legion 357’s witty repartee on obscure Charter references. Land sakes alive, I just giggled and tee-heed for hours - those guys are sooooo funny!

Perhaps if "Wildwood-gate" can somehow be tied into the "Fatal Funnel series" we'll hear ALL the facts ad nauseum.

Icantcook..."wayward wind, no Im not a lawbreaker. And since my sister is an attorney, im pretty well read in daily law. Im involved with the city and county so I know those as well."

Are you positive you're not a lawbreaker? There is no telling how many obscure laws out there of which even YOU might not be aware. Even lawyers need to read up on specifics -- thus the libraries filled with law books so the lawyers can be accurate. A street cop has been educated in law enforcement, but even he/she can't know them all.

If the police and DA won't help you with your vandalism problem, perhaps you need to sit up at night with a shotgun to solve your own problem. A jury won't convict you even if the DA tries to prosecute a citizen who protected his property from criminals. You probably won't be out any more for legal fees than you are for repairs to your property and you'll have the satisfaction of knowing that the (probably) gang thugs who vandalized your property have been taken care of.

On a personal level, I'd be outraged that the cops won't do anything, saying that the DA won't take the case. I'd go to the DA to make sure. Then, if he won't take the case, to the newspaper and television news with details. Perhaps enough publicity will get the authorities off their duffs. I understand full well that it takes more effort to investigate crimes against citizens than to write parking tickets, but Ure and his merry men and women need to remember for whom they work -- the taxpaying citizens of Victoria. If thugs are damaging/destroying private property and the police won't do anything about it, there are bigger problems in Victoria than vandals.

It's public relations spin when the chief goes on tv to explain a crime scene, or writes an op-ed piece in the newspaper like this. The Chief says "The Wildwood Strategy is a first-rate example of community policing." That statement seems at odds to anecdotal evidence from the community. No doubt it was well intentioned but it seems to have missed the mark by not only agitating the Wildwood residents but people from neighborhoods all across the city. The ticket and fine for an obscure law hit a raw nerve a lot of us feel, that we can be, and are ticketed and fined for ridiculous things at times.

Several years ago cities began an aggressive campaign to use the police to generate revenue through vigorous enforcement of traffic laws. This has been going on all accross Texas and perhaps the nation at a large. It is perceived by the public as punitive and unfair. The Wildwood case was the spark that ignited some public outrage at this policy.

Policing, no doubt is complicated business and why we hire professionals to do the job. I submit that problems are exacerbated when the public feels that police single out or otherwise meet out punishment on an arbitrary basis.

As to the suggestion that remedy can be found in the courts. Everyone pretty much knows that Municipal Court is a lackey for the city and the suggestion that justice is dispensed there is laughable.

I lived on Wildwood several decades ago & it wasn't the best street back then, but I hardly recognized it when I ventured down it last month. It was scary during the day!

Once the toothpaste is out of the tube, it's hard to get it back in!

wayward wind, no Im not a lawbreaker. And since my sister is an attorney, im pretty well read in daily law. Im involved with the city and county so I know those as well. I have been, however, a victim of violence and lawbreakers. It isnt pleasant and it is costly. This year alone Ive shelled out over $5000 in valdalism repairs and Im sure I will never recover a penny. the young adults who did this are walking and running the streets of Victoria terrorizing others because a dectective said that they were instructed not to send my case to the DA, HE might not take it. Im my opnion, an innocent citizen was slighted because of the fuss between the two agencies. That has nothing to do with the patrol officers and their performance.

the other thing is that if you really want to know what happened on wildwood st. I suggest that you go to the pd, ask for copies of all the calls since Jan 1 2009 on Wildwood street. Usually the names are removed from the copies but the addresses and complaints are plain as day. Its public record if there was an arrest or not, How the hell do you think the Advocate and other news media gets info?

good questions third party

Good thing we know the law about dying chicks before Easter gets here and all the feed stores sell those cute little green/pink/yellow chicks.

Legion..."So spitting on the sidewalk is illegal according to the Victoria city charter.... "

Thank you for posting that. It takes a load off my mind. I'll be real careful where I spit from now on.

The next enforcement item: Sec. 4-33. Sale of dyed fowl. No person shall dye or color any chicken or duckling less than eight (8) weeks of age, nor sell or offer for sale any such dyed or colored chickens or ducklings.
(Ord. No. 92-12, § 1, 4-21-92)
I wish I knew the story behind that one!

Even more ridiculous...

; prohibition of allowing water to accumulate on the streets, § 13-53; driving in ditches, § 22-17

They had to actually pass a ordinance to prohibit driving in ditches????

Geezzzz

Actually ..

*Charter references: Authority, Art. IX, § 1 et seq., Art. X, § 1 et seq.
Cross references: Planning commission, 2-120 et seq.; herding animals through streets, § 4-42; animals at large in the streets, § 4-41; auctioning of animals on the streets, § 4-43; unlawful accumulations of garbage and trash on the streets, §§ 10-20, 10-41; offense of obstructing thoroughfares by congregating thereon, § 15-8; peddlers selling merchandise on the streets, § 14-64; offense of spitting on the sidewalks,

So spitting on the sidewalk is illegal according to the Victoria city charter.... along with herding animals.

http://library7.municode.com/default-...

Yes it did.

Icantcook..."If you do the crime you should do the time and fine."
"I am for more than a slap on the hands to any offenders of any law."

Wow! Zero tolerance, huh? You sound like one of those "ignorance of the law is no excuse" zealots. I can but wonder how many laws you break on a daily basis. When you count all the federal and state laws and city ordinances, you must easily get a figure well into hundreds of thousands. NO ONE can know them all. Many are arcane or outdated or insignificant. Many are there seemingly to simply give the police an excuse to stop someone or to issue a ticket. For example, I never knew until this brouhaha started that parking with part of a vehicle over the sidewalk was against a state law and the cost of the ticket could be well in excess of a hundred bucks. Seems like an expensive lesson. I now wonder about spitting on the sidewalk. Is that illegal or simply rude? If illegal, how big is the fine for that? Is there a difference between spitting on the sidewalk and spitting into the grass bordering the sidewalk? Is all public spitting illegal or only that spittle that ends up on the sidewalk? How about the street? Is spitting on the street legal? So many laws and so many questions about laws. But when the city decides to collect money from its citizens, it certainly has a goodly number of obscure laws it can use as weapons.

I also wonder about the question the thirdpartyobserver asked. Did this saturation police effort result in anything more substantive than a single parking ticket?

BubbleHeadJones,

Maybe you should pull your bubblehead out of the "but" as your English lesson and PIO comments are WRONG.

"But" has at least 9 different uses in the English language (freedictionary.com) and your idea that the use of it negates everyting before it is wrong . Use your imagination.

As to your comments "since I have not ever seen a PIO speak on behalf of the police or the City I am assuming the plan was scrapped", this is also wrong. Just because YOU haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The office has existed for at least the last 14 months and was funded to the level of $235,160 for the current year that began Oct. 1st.

My point is if there was as much effort to deal with crime as there is to have the chief of police on the news or writing editorials some positive steps would be made. According to the crime report issued by the Victoria Police Department (http://www.victoriatx.org/police/pdfs...), class I crimes "Class I crimes reported by the Victoria Police Department are murder, rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, theft, and motor vehicle theft" are up over 5% in 2007 and another 5% in 2008 and at the same time adult arrests (not prosecutions) for 2008 were 6% less then 2007. Crimes going up arrests going down. This does paint a positive picture.

We see headlines of year long "sting operations" to combat alledged gambling (not a class I crime) and then no convictions. Now major news coverage of writing a ticket for a parking violation (again not a class I crime) but nothing mentioned about how many arrests related to 41 calls to the same neighborhood.

It appears to me the chief's position has become way more political then it should. Again, I am not bashing any work of any officer of the VPD, VSO or any other enforcement group. They all, for the most part, do a great job. I am just questioning why the chief has been appointed to be the official spokesman when the city is paying a huge sum of money to have a PIO? I am also questioning why major (class I) crimes are on the increase but the focus of policing seems to be on minor issues like parking tickets and sting operations that make headlines. We don't need headline crimefighting or explanation editorials we need the class I crimes to decline.

Good job VPD. As a citizen of Victoria I applaud the hard work and effort you put in to help restore this city. As for the POI comment, seeing as I read and watched the unfloding of the responses on the other story, I think he was in the right to address it. Shows he is willing to be a part of the community, not just a figure behind the desk.

3PO,
Not bashing the VPD but...
When you "but" anything you negate everything that came before the but.

like certain other members of this forum you are always bashing away merrily at VPD and to a lesser degree Law Enforcement in general.

I remember the Public Information Officer "scandle"
Yes I said scandle.
why? Because people were in an uproar about what is the city and police trying to hide? They were not trying to hide anything. They were trying to stop the constant misquotes by certain newspa..I mean, News agencies that shall remain nameless.

Certain naysayers of the police, City, and the City Council were in an uproar and in a mood to attack the whole Idea of the PIO and just assumed out of their own heads that someone was trying to hide something via the use of a PIO.

I don't recall that they ever did implement it and since I have not ever seen a PIO speak on behalf of the police or the City I am assuming the plan was scrapped.

Now here you are trying to have it both ways by attacking the Chief for NOT using a PIO that doesn't exist. All you want to do is to try casting the Chief and police in a negative light at every turn possible and I for one am sick of it.

Where was your outcry when the DA took out full page letters to the editors to attack and call the police names and cry victim of police slandering when the Chief was silent. All through the DA/Police rift the Chief had remained silent and the DA outspoken and Slanderous/Libelous against the police yet not one word against him from you or other cop-haters.

The Chief does this to try to put a light to some misperceptions and negativity caused in part by only partial reporting of one side of a story by Gabe (Who later tried to fix it by reporting more but by then too late, the pot was stirred) and all you can do is an "I'm not attacking you but..." then you attack him.

As to your second Item. You did not miss anything. Nowhere does it state the couple with the ticket that started this whole complaint mess is one of those 5 houses.
Given the situation however and the Chief's statement on the second followup article by Gabe, where he(the Chief) states something to the effect that there is more to the story than the couple is letting on, would lead me to believe that it is a high probability that this couple is one of the 5 trouble homes on that block. That would be in line with them trying to raise a stink about it publically rather than the proper channels.

Keep up the good Work Chief!
From every officer I have spoken with (and I know quite a few) you have turned this department around from the old days of Chief Jones when Charmelle Garrett was the defacto power-behind-the-throne puppeteer.

Several questions, not bashing the VPD but just trying to understand the issues.

First, the city approved a rather large budget for a "Public Information Officer" for the city. If this PIO office is supposed to be the central source of communication for the city, why is the police chief not going through the channels to respond to the issues? Why does he feel the need to respond directly in an "non official" forum such as newspaper editorials?

Second, I have read the editorial twice and maybe I missed it twice but was the owner of the vehicle cited associated with houses that were responsible for "41 calls (disturbances, nuisances, criminal mischief, etc.)to five houses on Wildwood Street"?

Did any of the 41 calls generate an arrest or a citation being issued or is this parking violation the only actual results?

Is the fee too steep, and should the officer have considered this before he cited the person?

I dont think so!!! If you do the crime you should do the time and fine. Our society has gone lax and nutz with anger and people who thing they are above the law. Our average citizens do it, our children do it, and I know of one teacher who does it, what an example to her students!!! I am for more than a slap on the hands to any offenders of any law. Evidently probation isnt working above the county collecting fees. See a probationer out doing something that breaks probation and see how fast they get just another slap. I think VPD, SO, Municipal Court and District Court needs to get tuff on these people and a percentage will straigten up. some are incouragable at best but most will. Thank you cheif URE for excellent explanition. Now check out the pot parties on rio grande street.

Thank you, Chief Ure, for a superb response. The "broken window" theory of urban decay is both real and valid. Your approach to addressing this problem is most welcome. Keep up the good work.