I feel like this has been the best decision for the students to have a dress code as such. The kids look so much better and do not look like trash. Some kids wore clothes that should not even be on the racks to sell. Especially the long shorts down to the ankles and the low cut jeans for girls with their skin showing and breasts all hanging out of their tops. It is very offensive for people that have to look at such clothing on kids. So many kids have lost all modesty. Thumbs up to VISD dress code.

Oh, I'm such a hypocrite! As I punched "post comment" I said to my child, whose olfactory glands are temporarily non-functioning due to allergies, "Hey! Put the flavored crackers away and eat the saltines! You can't taste. You don't know the difference!" But, doesn't it make sense that if you can't taste maybe you should start eating up the stuff no one else will eat???

This topic made me think more about freedom, human rights, and children. Not in a political sense, but in a philosophical one... Good thoughts, Rebecca. Rebecca Kerth, that is. =D

There have been some posters on this thread who have argued that the overweight students should be forced to tuck in their shirt, or else do something about their body and lose weight. I guess next you guys will be encouraging the ugly kids to wear a bag over their head, or get a nose job.

one of my family members is a teacher at one of the high schools. he/she says that some of the young ladies wear blouses, shirts or whatever that are cut so low that their breasts are in danger of popping out. as far as the baggy pants go, that's just stupid. why wear jeans at all, just wear your underwear. just plain stupid and disgusting. foot wear such as flip flops can be dangerous and help you trip up or down stairs in the new highschools.

The uniformity that should be addressed is good parenting, but we all know that is not going to happen. That's why we're human - we make mistakes. Learn from them. The legal system should not be able to determine how people dress. That's a neglect of one's human rights.

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i AM A STUdENT ANd i AlWAYs fOllOWEd ThE dRESS COdE i likE TO WEAR WhAT i likE bECAUSE i fEEl UNiqUE bY kNOWiNG ThAT nOOnE WEARS WhAT i WEAR bUT NOW iT jUST SUCkS!!! i lOVE TO EXPRESS MySElf N NOW i kNAT EVEN dO ThAT! ):

"Ditto" I agree with the statement that it should be up to the parents and not the teachers to police the students on their attire while attending class. It wouldn't have to be this way if the students would just follow the school rules, eventually they'll have to follow them for job requirements. Plain and simple - just follow your rules and regulations. If you don't want to be there - then get out. Why make it hard for those students that want to be there and want to enjoy high school..........

I think that the dress code is too strict on the student body. I’m a student at one of the high schools and I for one think that the dress code this year is more distracting than last years "wear what you want but stay in the guidelines" dress code. I don’t know how many times that I get stopped in the halls to tuck in my shirt or to button up more than what it is. People get pointed out and become a distraction when no even trying to be. I know my only job is to come to school, get an education, and not come here to come play "dress up". This thing just irritates me sooo bad, and no i'm not jus saying all this because I HAVE to wear polos and I don’t want to i'm saying it because this is a bigger distraction to me than anything in my whole school career.
-La'dee

Amazing conversations. Parents - if you are the ones writing these - consider my next statement. "Learn to say "NO, you are not wearing that and NO, you are not buying that while you live under my roof!" It's OK to put limits on your children.

If these comments are posted by Students - remember "If you'd followed the dress codes before, this wouldn't be an issue today." School is not a place to make a Fashion Statement. It is a place to receive a higher education than you previously had.

You're correct Hicktoria - the teachers shouldn't have to POLICE the students with reference to their attire. PARENTS should be responsible enough to make certain that their child/children are dressed appropriately. But, in the real world - it doesn't happen all of the time.

Anyway - I can hardly wait to see how the next few months unfold with the Rivalry back in force, the engineers who decided that Victoria schools only needed one entrance (hmmm...this is a major foul up - even in Austin our schools have more than one entrance - albeit not all entrances are for students, but we do have more than one entrance).

Thankful to know that these things are of such importance - kind of puts other things into perspective. Priority in my mind, would hardly be a "Dress Code". That's just me. You are entitled to your opinions. I just kind of think of our Heros (who have and who are still fighting and dying for our right to post silly trivial issues such as a "Dress Code") - Thinking about those with Cancer - those who've lost loved ones - sick babies - sick parents -children....yeah - this Dress Code thing seems trivial when you really stop and take a look at what matters most.

If the schools going tell kids age 0-17 what wear in school. Just wear unform. Kids, teachers and everybody wear unform. Its like going to work. When people get out school they wear what they like.

Having a dress code solves alot of issues for teachers and parents. It's unbelieveable what some kids wear to school and some change in their cars because their parents said they couldn't wear it....I'm all for dress codes and the plainer the better.

Rebecca,
I was trying to figure out which body part was being mentioned.

I never thought about math papers! That's even funnier. Kind of like a nutty professor type, right?

I thought the use of the word "ratios" was intentional. I imagined unorganized math teachers with papers falling all around them.

sage--

That's funny. I was trying to imagine what word 'ratios' was being substituted for.

That was good.

Sage, if you did infuriate, I hope they address your points and do not attack you. I think that would be a horrible example to set - to attack the person instead of the ideas. It would be much worse than wearing baggy pants and letting your undies show...

Boomerang- my auto correct replaced "tattoos" with the word "ratios".

Boomerang - your question about the backpacks is a great one. Searching backpacks falls under "search and seizure" laws. Schools must have cause to search a student's personal possessions. So we can't search the backpacks without good reason. As far as the x-rays and metal detectors go: I guess they are perfectly legal, but in my opinion, I see two drawbacks to them. First, they are expensive and need to be manned. This is costly, and since we are a low income district, I feel like this would be a waste of our limited funds. I think we could spend money in other, more effective areas. Second, there are some theories that suggest that adding x-ray machines and metal detectors negatively impact student behavior. The sentiment is that if you make them feel like criminals, they will act that way. I think the dress code is an inexpensive way to manage behavior while minimizing the potential for an increase in negative behavior. As far as sloppy teachers with ratios hanging out: I agree. I think it's a shame and a disgrace to the profession. I am embarrassed by it, and frankly, I wish teachers could be written up and eventually terminated, if there is no improvement. As it stands, it is nearly impossible to et fired a a teacher. This needs to change. For the sake of our students, we need to weed out the lousy teachers, just like any other workplace can get rid of their lousy employees. Just my opinion - I'm pretty sure I just made a bunch of people furious.

Kids age 0 -17 have right wear want they like !!! But school going tell kids want wear should just put dress code of unform and let kids wear shoe want ever they like. When you go to work you wear unform. When i went victroia high school you have to put your shirt in and you can not wear hat. Stroman let kids wear hats and did not have to put shirt in.

Thank you sage for the video, I have seen it before. And the parent responsible for bringing that video to the attention of VISD a few years ago, well...her child no longer goes to school in VISD. But in my previous post I wondered why there are not metal detectors or xray machines for the backpacks. Is that a privacy issue?? Tell them how to dress...but don't infringe on their constitutional rights by checking backpacks! Hhhmmmm??? The dresscode only solves part of the problem.

I think my son speaks for many, but not all of the students. He has an opinion...but unfortunately...not an option.

I was unable to locate the teacher dress code in the VISD Employee handbook...but thank you again, sage, teachers should dress professionally...that's what I was getting at. The teachers that I saw that day at West, were not in any way dressed professionally...flipflops & tattoo's...not very professional.

And maybe you had a decrease in ISS last week at East, because the kids that weren't in dress code were sent home. (Read it in another post) Just my opinion

And B2Bme...teachers and students are in the same CLASS...M-F 8:30-4...my point has been made...see the reaction I got from you...the shoe doesn't fit so well when it's on the other foot! You don't want to be told what to wear either :)

*sigh* the link didn't work, sorry. I guess I'm not sure how to link it. :(

Rebecca, you are looking at the elementary school dress code. There are different standards for elementary and secondary schools at the moment. I believe they are pushing the more strict dress code down to the elementary schools next year.

Here is a link to the employee dress code:

http://www.visd.com/policy/regulation...

Thanks for sharing an answer to one of the "whys." It looks like shirts don't have to be tucked in if they are hemmed and not baggie. Also, I can't find a mention of "no stripes" in the code. Here is what I am looking at: http://www.visd.com/parent/dressCode.asp Is there something more detailed or is the "no stripes" a rumor?

To the individual who claimed that dress does not affect a student's learning: I disagree. When I dressed as my favorite gangster rapper one day for a "dress up" event, I felt tougher, angerier, and less compliant. When I dress professionally, I feel more in control, more focused, and better about myself.

There have been extensive studies on the impact of dress on behavior. Research indicates that clothing does impact behavior. Opinion does not consitute fact.

I am sorry the student at West is having a bad experience with the dress code. That is not the case at East. Students have been remarkably better behaved (so far), they have been more polite, they have been less confrontational. All of this is evidenced by the fact that we had 2-3 students in ISS last week, depending on the day, two of whom were Freshman. This time last year, the ISS list would have had over 30 kids on it.

Teachers should not have the same dress code as students. We are not students. I agree that we should lead by example, but that example should come from leading by showing how to dress professionally. That, in a nutshell, is our dress code: dress professionally. To view the teacher dress code, go to the VISD website. It should be under rules and regulations. If I remember correctly, it is in the employee handbook. There is also a section of the "Local" code that deals with it.

Check out this link. It illustrates why schools have the "ridiculous" rule that students must tuck in their shirts and wear pants that fit at the waist, with a belt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If44Fj...

I agree completely about kids trying to grow up too soon. We do police our daughter's outfit before she goes to the mall. She's not wearing the cutoff short shorts and tight little tank top, with everything showing. If there is a "VISD Teacher Dress Code" is it published somewhere that I can read it? I am curious if the teachers that I saw were "compliant". It's just a shame that the kids look so nice now...but SOME of the teachers still look unkept and lazy!

Teachers have earned the right to dress a little differently. They have, afterall, put in the work and the hours to finish HS and then college.
Students and teachers are not in the same "class" so deal with it.
And besides, one needs to be able to tell the difference between students and faculty, now don't they?

Scarlett, did you have to wear pantyhose and dresses? At one time weren't pantyhose a requirement?

boomerang...teachers do have a dress code they are expected to follow. But, it is not the same as the students. I for one would have loved teaching in the classroom wearing jeans, a "polo" shirt (tucked in) with a belt and tennis shoes. Throughout the societies and cultures of the world there are different standards/rules for children (minors) than for adults. This is part of our societies problems today. Children are trying to be grown-ups too quickly ie...12 and 13 year old girls showing cleavage and wearing way too much make-up. Too many have parents who have taught them to question everything an adult tells them. There are times when children need to just do what they are told without a 15 minute discussion on why they need to do it.

I think everyone can tell that me and my child had something to say...and I said that the teachers should LEAD BY EXAMPLE...follow the same dress code that the kids have to...the teachers I saw were NOT in the same dress code that the kids must follow

I think the kids look awesome!!! It is so nice to drop off kids at school and see them looking like they care about appearance!! My child even commented on how nice everyone looks and she was totally against the dress code!! I think it may even make some of us lose a little needed weight not being able to hide under baggy clothes!

So, which one are you, Boomerang? The 15-year-old kid, or the parent checking you out of school?

Tell you what. Whichever you are, I'm sure a lot of teachers would be happy to trade places with students on that dress code. Who wouldn't prefer to wear shorts, polo shirt and all? And sandals?! Teachers get to shuck shoes?! Heck, yeah!

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hello im 15 male sophmore at west.I saw these comments and we are not "socialy equal" the jocks are still jocks and the nerds are still nerds,people are still saging their pants.everyone still acts the same but WE ARE NOT HAPPY with this dress code. ya'll say that we need the dress code,that its teaching us something,its not.our old clothes didn't interfer with our learning. some of ya'll reading this you didnt have a strict dress code and turned out all right. just thought it'll be nice to add a students comment in here.

Has anyone checked the teacher/faculty dress code lately? Do they have to adhere to the same dress code that the students do? I checked my child out today for a dr. appt @ West...and noticed teachers with shirts untucked, no belts, flipflops, and noticeable TATTOOS's...but my son was stopped 6 times before he was told to go to the front desk to "borrow" a belt for the day because he forgot his at home. THE TEACHERS AND FACULTY SHOULD BE SETTING A GOOD EXAMPLE FOR THE STUDENTS.

What is the reasoning for the dress code? There was an issue a while back, brought up by a parent, concerning concealed weapons. Is this done for a safety reason? Because I didn't notice any xray machines installed in these new schools to check backpacks for weapons.

Is it meant to make everyone "uniform"? Then VISD should pay for the "uniform".

San Antonio Independent School district has required uniforms for a number of years. Khaki pants and white polo shirts for high school, and different colored shirts for lower grades. Works great except for the police when a student does something illegal and you are asked to describe the person...Khaki pants and a white polo shirts fits a LOT of suspects.

Principals are what most people personally live by...our personal rules for ourselves. Rules are rules/laws/policy that we must follow in our daily lives set by a 3rd party.

I'm just relieved that no one posted a picture of Boadicea this time.

LOL Kyle...yes there is alot of D in her life too...of course from mommy & daddy, not from Meezy & Poppy ; ) we are lucky that way!

Ground Zero Mosque anyone?

To me the path went "what is the logic in 'no stripes?'" to pondering "rules vs principles" and "letter of the law vs spirit of the law" to wondering about "intrinsic vs external motivation and rewards" ... I'm so off topic, I'm confusing myself. =P

My daughter understands that if she does A she will accomplish B but then she'll do C and end up in D - etention

:-)

My 3 yr old granddaughter understands it. She's not a big eater & of course I worry. The way I have figured out to get her to eat, especially vegtables, is to tell her if she wants to get big like mommy & daddy she has to eat them. Of course, as soon as she eats them she will not automatically be as big as mommy & daddy, but she eats them & then announces that she will be. We monitor her growth on the door every few months & it does prove that yes, she is getting bigger/taller. It is not everyday, as she does not grow significantly, every day, but she DOES understand that if she does A, she will accomplish B. So therefore, she does understand that she will be "rewarded" for her efforts down the road.

It will happen all by itself. People of all ages crave praise for what they do and a reward validates to them that they did good. The reward can be something as simple as a hug or kiss from their mommy or daddy. Good grades show everyone that they did good. When they learn to love that feeling, it makes them try to get even higher grades next time. That carries on to adult life when they earn their pay check. They want recognition and a chance for a pay raise, so they put in that little extra effort to achieve it.
It's those who haven't had that experience that usually do as little as they possibly can to just get by. People don't work for nothing. Kids in school won't work for nothing either.

Well, I "taught" it to my child with the action vs reaction bit. Teaches them to make good choices & there is some sort of "reward" if the right choices are made, just like there is an anti-reward if wrong choices are made. All rewards are not tangible.

You CAN "teach" maturity & every moment in life is a "teachable" moment. You seem to be confusing "teach" with a classroom setting or something.

If you tour college campuses during classes (UT,ATM) you will find that although there is not a dress code, the adults attending (yes, I said adults) aren't wearing baggy pants and ghetto clothes. Most of the reason for this is that those types of individuals didn't make the cut thru high school. I mean, come on, when is the last time you went to a bank, doctor or dentist, most civilized work places, and were greeted by the doc, or whomever, and their pants are down around their knees and undies are hanging out. Discipline has to begin at a young age, and if you can't make it thru something minor like jeans and polos, odds are you won't be strolling thru a college campus to get to class, because college requires years of discipline in many different ways.

Born, how do you suggest we "teach" children how to translate external rewards into intrinsic rewards?

Good luck with that kind of thinking, Rebecca. You just may accomplish that in your household, but the world runs on a reward system. Don't handicap your kids because the world is not going to change for them. You need to prepare them to go out into the world we have.

I don't know if that's something that we teach. Is it something that a person has to discover on their own in their own way? Like you don't teach personality - you can only influence it. Can't teach maturity.

Yes Rebecca, that's what I mean.....children do learn the difference & from a very early age. It needs to be enforced as they grow & mature. Life isn't set up for instant gratification or rewards on demand, sometimes you have to wait to reap your rewards, it is best if one understands that concept.

Turtle, do you think that students who attend college after high school will be in for even more of a shock being that colleges don't have dress codes? Our most educated will now be our most shocked? When I was in college I even had a class with nude students - at least when I was an art major. ;) ;) ;) I think we are giving the idea of a dress code too much credit. Don't forget, I've shared the pros of the dress code with you guys on another "thread."

(I don't want to assume that you mean learn the difference between intrinsic and external rewards.)

VBB, learn what? Be specific.

Rebecca, then I ask, how will they learn the difference when they are older if they are not taught now?

VBB, we were talking about intrinsic vs external rewards and motivation. I was trying to make a point that it would be harder for a child to translate abstract rewards to intrinsic rewards - harder than it would be for an adult. It's possible, obviously, but harder. This as I mentioned why I didn't agree with the school/work analogy. So, my comments alone might not make much sense and might be out of context.

"Unschooling" is learning outside of an institution or a school. John Holt coined the word and used it in place of "homeschool." The two were synonymous. I realize that recently "radical unschoolers" were interviewed and reported as "unschoolers," but I see a difference in the two life-styles. Yeah, "radical unschooling" is a new rung on the parenting scale beyond "permissive parenting."

I was feeling guilty that I had veered off topic so.

I disagree that we are treating them like adults. I think we are treating them like children. Children need rules and boundaries in order to learn. You don't turn 18, graduate high school and magically become an adult. There are life lessons to be learned before this can happen. In older times, these life lessons came from home and some from television. But unfortunately both areas have lost their values. We did not always need strict dress codes because parents used to take care of this. A majority of these children do not have parents that take an active role in their lives. And a fair portion do not even live with their parents. Life lessons and values no longer come from home, so the schools have to pick up that as well. It is no longer our job to JUST teach academics, now we have to teach values, life lessons, "soft skills" if you will. Someone has to do it.

While the "let them wear whatever they want when they're kids" approach may seem like a progressive, "better" way to teach. I have a feeling that kids raised like this will have a HUGE shock to their system when they become "adults" and all of a sudden have to conform to a dress code. In much the same way that if you let your kids eat whatever they want, they will have a hard time eating healthy when they have health problems as adults. Things like this need to be taught, they don't just happen magically.

And let me add, in the adult work world, there is a test at the end of your year, it is given a number grade, these days usually between 0-5 with a % added to it. It's kinda like passing or failing, if you get a 0 then you have to wait another year to prove yourself (if your lucky) to pass. Those %'s are a nice incentive, kinda like school grades. It's a wonderful sense of accomplishment to know that you passed someones, other than your mothers, expectations.

Rebecca, I may be misunderstanding but what I get from what you are saying is, school = work - a paycheck. You are assuming all kids hate school which would then equate adults hating work. I like to work, I always have & it has nothing to do with a paycheck. I do learn new stuff everyday, some of it relative, most of it not. I am salary yet I work more than 8 hrs a day, all uncompensated. That is the way we want all people to be, go above & beyond, do the best job you can, regardless of how it "benefits" $$ you. I derive great satisfaction from a job thoroughly done.

That is the problem that I have with what you are saying, you think kids should "benefit" for every effort they put out & that's not life. Sometimes we have to go all out & prove ourselves before we reap any benefits. Kids who have had no structure will have a harder time adjusting to structure here in the real world. Your kids may not get up til they are good & ready & that may be fine for you, but how will that fly with their future employer? How will they cope when all of a sudden they have rules & expectations placed upon them? How will they be confident in what they know if their knowledge has never been truely measured? I have issues with "unschooling" in theory. A parents "job" is to set rules, expectations & to teach their children how to cope & get along in this big wide world & the "unschooling" philosophy flies inthe face of that.....a parent should parent their child not befriend them & be their partner, as partner implies equal, parents & children are not equals. But that is just my humble opinion.

Rebecca,

No need to message back and forth. I totally understand what you are saying, I just don't agree with it. I guess I've lived enough years to have seen different teaching methods work and then know that some of them don't work.

Born, I think your interpretation of what I have said is overgeneralized, but that's probably because I lack the patience to better compose my comments. If you really care to discuss it in more detail please shoot me a private message. =D

Rebecca,

That's why there's a difference between kids and adult. Kids have to be molded to think in terms of work as a necessary part of life , all their lives. You have to teach them that it is an inescapable part of life. Do you not teach your kids to pick up after themselves, clean their room, make their beds, or do anything else that contributes to a happy and healthy home? Do you think that they do not see that as work?
Work is not optional and should not be when they are just kids.

I've seen kids that don't have to work all their lives and it ain't pretty. They become dependent on other people all their lives in one way or another.
Learning to work early in life leads to productive and self-sustaining human beings.

rebecca, as a home schooler, what were the major factors in your decision to leave the traditional educational system?

I thought I was going to have trouble getting my son to comply with the dress code.... initially, he did not like the idea. However, he has changed his opinion and likes the way he looks in a polo tucked in and belted. I like the way he looks too!

myvu - and mom and kids can sleep until 10 in the morning....

"KyleC
Permalink Does anyone have experience of attending a school in a nudist colony?"

Probably not much difference - still have to tuck and wear a belt. Open-toe shoes = OK. LOL

Probably more eyewash stations, though.

No, but, that would be distracting, at first. I have had experience with trying to keep clothes ON a toddler. Some like to be neknid better than they like to be clothed.

Does anyone have experience of attending a school in a nudist colony?

Sure Edith. Sure. Though I like the idea of principles better. It's fun to discuss and toss around ideas. I think in pre-school the rule or lesson learned is "you must be clothed." Baby-steps. ;)

Rebecca--

Can you view it as a 'rule' thing, rather than a 'job' thing?

Rules are necessary for all ages. Rules aren't suspended because some one is not an adult.

If the rule is you will wear a certain shirt and certain slacks, then those are the rules. Most kids get the concept of rules, especially those who have been exposed to daycare.

If you don't like the school system, then home school. They can wear what ever and you can post on the internet all day.

Born, I hope my clarification helped?

I do not think it's good for us to create an association between "work" and learning. We want life long learners? To me, school should be about learning and work should be about work... You can continue to learn even when you are an adult, right? Another problem I have with the school/work analogy is that adults get to pick from a variety of work places - even if they are limited to a career in food service. The average child in Victoria has one school building based on where they live - and maybe another option IF the parents can afford it. You can opt out of the system all together if you are insane. ;)

Rebecca,

Your analogy between a paycheck and grades did imply that money was more important in all instances. In the adult world it is, for obvious reasons.
Kids are kids and that is why they do not get paid for good grades. Well, I guess some of them do but I don't feel that it is a good thing. Kids need to want to achieve for achievements sake, not to get money for doing something that should be expected of them anyway. Money comes later when their minds are a little more mature and can understand the difference.
If parents think they have to bribe their kids to give it their all, then the kids think that they can control the parents by withholding the good grades to get what they want. That sets up a dangerous scenerio and unfortunately is the reason that the kids of today don't think they have to get their hands dirty doing a job later on.
They don't want to start at the bottom and work their way up anymore, which is exactly what starting in kindergarden and finishing in HS is. Kids start at the bottom and work their way up by doing the work and striving for achievement. It's not about getting paid money, it's about achieving greatness through hard work and "putting in the hours". You simply cannot teach that after the formative years. It has to to part of their whole lives.
During this time, why shouldn't they also learn proper dress and workplace ettiquette? They need to learn the difference between work and play and having it as part of their whole lives will make it so easy for them after HS.

First things first.....

On topic with this "Ranging Reporter Update" = I believe the dress code is just right.

Now that I have THAT out of the way, my $0.02 regarding school vs employment as it applies to TEENAGERS:

*cue heart-wrenching, old-timey music*

I was raised to believe that my education WAS my job. I had to report on time, actively participate for a full day, complete my assignments in a timely fashion, and follow the rules. My rewards consisted of being able to participate in extracurricular activities, hang out with friends on the weekends, and - when the time came - to get my drivers license.

If I slacked on any of those things, I was promptly reminded by my father that it was called schoolWORK for a reason and failure to do my best would result in privileges being revoked in short order.

I remember only pushing the envelope (and my parents tolerance) one time as a freshman. I didn't feel school was nearly as fun as I thought it should be. A real rebel without a clue LOL. Brother Sean Donohue (R.I.P.) took me aside one day and said, "Being the most experienced 18 year-old in 9th grade is not something you should strive for. You probably ought to step it up." Enough said.

*end heart-wrenching, old-timey music*

I think we are selling our teenagers short if we expect them to have the where-with-all to:
* be responsible enough to get behind the wheel of a 2000 lb vehicle
* safely and responsibly navigate the treacherous waters of the online world, and
* make daily decisions about who is in their social circle

but not expect them to treat school with the same level of commitment and responsibility as they would a job.

Again, not knocking anybody else's views or opinions here. Just expressing my own.

Oh! And for a child to be able to take those external motivations like grades etc and translate them into internal motivations is a pretty big deal! I think children like that are the exception, not the rule, and when a child's brain doesn't function like that, it's not their fault, it's the fault of the ... double helix. D= Or as the neurologist turned teacher would say, "Hating school might be the sign of a healthy brain." http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/r...

"how can you have any pudding, if you don't eat your meat!?!"

I think "Imagine" by John Lennon is the best "unschooling" song.

A: "I think it's just right. It helps to make everyone equal as far as social status."

Tommy Harris, Fannin, corrections officer

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exactly what a prison guard would say.....

I am still wondering when the day will come. The day when we have no more freedoms left. It is coming. However, you will have to pry my weapon out of my dead hands before you take mine.

It's fun to think about. =D

"Maybe we are conditioning our children to seek external rewards rather than helping them become motivated and rewarded from within."

Exactly, Rebecca!

"As soon as you're born they make you feel small
By giving you no time instead of it all
Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all
A working class hero is something to be
A working class hero is something to be

They hurt you at home and they hit you at school
They hate you if you're clever and they despise a fool
Till you're so crazy you can't follow their rules
A working class hero is something to be
A working class hero is something to be

When they've tortured and scared you for twenty odd years
Then they expect you to pick a career
When you can't really function you're so full of fear
A working class hero is something to be
A working class hero is something to be

Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV
And you think you're so clever and classless and free
But you're still f-ing peasants as far as I can see
A working class hero is something to be
A working class hero is something to be

There's room at the top they are telling you still
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
If you want to be like the folks on the hill
A working class hero is something to be
A working class hero is something to be

If you want to be a hero, well, just follow me
If you want to be a hero, well, just follow me"

Working Class Hero -John Lennon

@ rebecca

the reward that you talk about is not given every six weeks, it's given every time they take a test or complete an assignment. the grade given every 6 weeks is the accumulation of the past 6 weeks worth of rewards.

using video games as a way to get kids interested in school and success isn't something that i would eagerly support. i think they spend way too much time in that "reality" as it is.

you're right about kids not being miniature adults. that's why they go to school. they do not have the skills to survive in this world on their own. i read the quote on your profile. interesting and thought provoking, but a little loose. kids sometimes do need to be motivated, even prodded to learn. we have to do more than just expose them to the world. we have a responsibility to help them understand it.

Maybe we are conditioning our children to seek external rewards rather than helping them become motivated and rewarded from within.

Born, I didn't mean that money was the best reward. I meant that the frequency and the concreteness of the reward was important to the brain. I agree that intrinsic motivation is the most healthy way to live. Not all children are that mature. Not because they are bad...

Rebecca,

I can remember when I was in school and getting those good grades was inspiring and very important for me. At that age, grades were more important to me than money, because I knew that those grades made me feel better about myself and made me want to accomplish even more. Things are not always about money. Self-respect is a powerful tool to carry with you for the rest of your life. Clothes cannot give you self respect. All they do is give one a false sense of self-importance.
Since when is self-achievement a bad thing?
Good Lord, if this is the way people think about school, no wonder our kids are so far behind kids in other countries.

Paladin's suck! Now Harlequin Space Marine's - they rock!

We are so outdated and out of touch with many of our kids. We hope to reach them via dress code? Seth Priebatsch's recent Ted talk, "The game layer on top of the world." Check it out: http://www.ted.com/talks/seth_priebat...

I love this and THIS is the language most of our children would understand. "...Why give letter grades? Why not gain 'experience points?' If you called Valedictorian a 'white knight paladin level 30' do you think more kids would strive for that?" (not a verbatim quote)

Interesting thought, though.

It bothers me that we keep expecting our children to be miniature adults when they are not. The adult brain is very different from the brain of a child. Comparing students to adult workers or comparing school to a job is not reasonable. I'll try to explain: We expect them to "work" for about six weeks to be rewarded by a very abstract letter grade. The culmination of "paychecks" or "report cards" can't be cashed in for one year in the form of advancing to the next grade. Retirement, or the real reward comes after THIRTEEN YEARS. Think about it. You get your "rewards" every two weeks in the form of a paycheck which translates to something more concrete than a letter grade: a house, a car, clothing, FREEDOM... What if your boss gave you an A through an F and then after about twenty years you got your "paycheck?" Wouldn't you tire, burn-out, or get discouraged? And YOUR brain can handle the delay of rewards better than the immature brain. Adults are more babied than children using this analogy.

labahia,

See, that's the problem with kids today. They don't think school is "work". It's more of a social place for them. Well, school is supposed to be hard work. A student is not supposed to waste one minute wondering how they look, if the next person has something better on than they do, if they look hot to the opposite sex. Their minds are supposed to be on what the teachers are trying to teach them, and nothing else.
labahia, you epitomize what is wrong with schools today. Sadly for the students, it has become more of a social experiment, than a place for learning.
Schools that have strict dress codes, produce smarter students around the world, because competition is saved for scholastic achievement, instead of personal appearance.

I keep seeing all these references about how they will face dress codes and uniforms at work.
School is not "work", and these are students,not employees.
As far as preparing them now for the workforce, that's whats college is for. And the last time I was on campus, some student even came to early classes in PJ's, and the rest wore pretty much whatever they wanted.
How many of you have trouble with your dress when entering the workforce because you didn't have a strict dress code in HS?
So why all the animosity towards kid nowadays's?

Really here folks????

Reading here shows different levels of what???

You only need to look at the bus stops over the last 2 days to see the difference of the dress codes of Victoria students, please don't feed the good readers of Victoria Advocate that parents can't afford to dress their kids in correct attire when these same kids are sitting at the bus stops with cell phones & DS games.
If you can afford those, GUESS what you can afford 5 polo shirts & a pair of jeans.

As far as teachers being "police" to students, let face it folks, this is called life, you will always have this for the rest of your life, it is called a boss, a landlord, a tax collector, a something or another. Everyone has to have this. People life is NOT fair!!!!
UMMM, let's see if you work at McDonalds, BAD NEWS, you wear a uniform, if you work at Target..uniform, Wal-Mart...uniform, car wash...uniform...
Even if you work in an professional office, guess what folks, there will be NO boxers showing, UMMM guess what, pretty much..uniform...shirt & tie and suits & dresses.........am I the only one understanding here?????
You don't get a choice. Oh, I guess you can if you live off welfare, and can stay home all day long.

I'm sorry Rebecca, I guess I should get in better touch with my touchy-feely side instead of calling a spade a spade. I did use the nicer term "fluffy" as opposed to what I was really thinking.

Holein1, yes I am with you 100% on the self-esteem gone wild denial that is going on in many homes, and these forums, these days. I watched an episode of Penn & Tellers B*llSh*t that addressed "self esteem" and how it is spoon fed to our kids. It explains a lot about the way people are today, why strive to be the best when everyone tells you that your mediocrity is the penultimate best!!!!!

With the polo, the tuck & the belt, some overflow may be noticeable, but NOTHING compared to the wedding cake that was flowing out the tops of those low rise jeans with the tight shirt that didn't quite reach the belt loops. Do teens NOT own mirrors anymore?

Rebecca, your rule is simplicity itself. But there's still the issue of underpants covering the vertical skin split. I don't want to be behind the plumber when his tool belt is pulling his britches down. Nor do I want to know if he favors boxers or briefs. ;)

This is proof that when rules don't make any sense we adults do cartwheels to try to rationalize them. Childhood obesity while advocating verbal abuse... You know what I would do if one of my children was over weight? I'd sign them up for soccer, tennis, other sports, and ask them to go walking with me in the evenings and even to do P90X with me. I'd buy more fruits and serve more veggies. I wouldn't call them names. I'd model a better lifestyle. D=

They should let "A" students wear what they want as a reward. They could wear a lanyard identifying them. Nothing else seems to motivate these kids. By the way- I'm a teacher that dresses professionally.

vbb - i'm with you. the idea that there are large numbers of kids, and adults for that matter, that have thyroid or other physiological issues that cause them to obese is hog wash, ludicrous and a contributing factor to the problem. the obesity epidemic in children is not a product some crazy out of control thyroid issue. it's a product of a high fat, high sugar, high caloric diet and a low exercise, low functioning lifestyle. and those that continue to make excuses for them are only making it worse.

i'm overweight, hell i might even be obese. i tuck my shirt in everyday, and i wear a belt. am i self-conscience about my appearance? you bet. i'm trying to do something about it though. i guess if i was still at home my mommy and daddy would tell me it was ok and i shouldn't listen to those meanies while they make me a huge bowl of ice cream with cookies for an afternoon snack. naw, my parents would call me fat and tell me to do something about it.

the truth hurts sometimes, but it can sure be one hell of a motivator.

Oh please...all the whiners have been complaining about how the tucking in & belts will embarress their kids due to their fluffyness. I understand that there are a FEW who have slower metabolisms/thyroid issues which do cause them to be bigger with no control, but come on.....I see daily more kids that could stand to lose more pounds than not. It's really sad when you see toddlers so fat they can barely walk, eating candy & drinking sodas. Don't PC sugarcoat it, obesity, especially childhood obesity is a HUGE problem & 100% preventable.

I = I'm ---- I think I'll call it a night.

(Remind me to not try to type after the P90X 'back and bi' workout!)

them = these Holy Snickers!

I think principles would address the "whys" and appeal to reasoning where rules would not. I hope teachers and parents are having them conversations with their kids. I glad we can have them here.

River, how about something simple like, "No cleavage on top or below..." Is that principles vs rules? Spirit of vs letter of?

vbb,

That is about as insensitive and uneducated as it comes. Not all kids can control their weight and not all people who are insecure about their bodies are overweight. As hard as it may be for you to understand, kids that are too thin have just as many insecurities about their bodies. You are also not taking into account those who may have other structural problems that they may find embarrassing.

I have issues with the "body image" comments...if your child is self conscious about their body, then maybe this will be the boost they need to do something about it. Kids are getting bigger (fatter) these days, mostly due to lack of activity & bad eating habits. Now is the time, while they are young & metabolism is on their side, to lose weight. If they are too lazy to shed the pounds, to boost their own self esteem, then I don't feel sorry for them as they, or better yet their parents, allowed this to happen. Gotta help yourselves sometime or deal with reality.

A couple of posters commented that tucking shirts in and wearing a belt is too much trouble. I'd be willing to negotiate on a lot of things, but I can assure you this is one aspect that was a long time coming. Years of watching teenagers' pants sag below "see" level with underwear showing was enough to convince me this was necessary.

Today at work we were issued the new Policy handbook, in it was our dress code policy. As I work in healthcare, it is easier on everyone if we are dressed according to department & each direct care department is assigned a color & it must have company logo embroidered on uniform, colors are chosen by each dept. All non-direct care depts though must wear certain color pants, with a certain color polo top, no exceptions. I am my own department, not covered by dress code policy, therefore I could wear scrubs or regular clothes, to "express" myself. Luckily, my personality is such that I don't need clothes to define me, so I can go the easy, lazy route of choosing my own color scrubs to wear. It just makes life so much easier.

This is just a minor part of the students first step to life; It is called discipline, following the rules. By reading some of the comments it seems the parents lack the perspective to have their child follow the rules. It costs to much, little Suzie will loose her individuality. Regardless of what the outcome of this dress code it is a good step in the right direction. As far as the school pay for the clothes, the clothes were going to have to be bought anyways its the parents responsibility to furnish the clothes. It is the parents job to make sure their child is in compliance so what does this tell you when students show up at school not wearing the proper attire. Bad parenting? Rules will always be with you no matter how old you are, till the day you die.

Dress code is good. It will cut down on clothes expenses. My only gripe is when we spend the money to find and buy the clothes and go to the schools and see 80% of the stundents not in them.

you think this is about social status? please.

it's not about stifling kids personal expression. there are plenty of avenues to express themselves. besides, there are only a small few that actually express themselves through their clothes, the rest are trying to fit in with the latest fads, or trying to impress someone they like.

by the way, polo is a style not just a brand. you can buy solid polos at wal-mart for pretty cheap. i think old navy sells them for less than $10 sometimes.

I think it's good to have a dress code. The only thing I would add is at least allow striped polos. This would give the kids a little more options. I do agree with shirts being tucked in and wearing a belt. I get pretty tired of knowing what kind of boxers kids are wearing and seeing them walking like a spread eagle to keep their pants on. It looks ridunkolous!! Back in the day, if we didn't were a belt, the office gave us a piece of rope to borrow for the day. Let me tell you, I belt is much more attractive than rope. If you feel it's a self esteem problem, then someone needs to help those that feel this way. You have to like yourself before others will like you. Parents have known for months that this day was coming. There should be no excuses not to comply.

I know that it is expensive to pay for seperate school clothes. I let my children wear the same clothes all the time. Sure, they will have uniforms and dress codes when they get outta school, but they are kids, let's let them express themselves. This is not just for learning from books but for learning how to interact with other people, regardless of how they are dressed. To dress them all the same is to give them the idea that everyone is robot-like and everyperson is the same, not true. They can have the same disadvantages with similar clothing as they have with them all dressed differently. You can tell whos clothes are new, whos are old. You can tell who's been ironed, who hasn't. You can still see the differences in their social status. Why bother with the dress code?

I think that it’s just right. Ideally it would be wonderful if all parents would accept responsibility for their child. But historically that has not happened.

It seems necessary now, to have a dress code

now as a guideline for proper attire.

Left unchecked, young people are influenced

by much of the clothing today which

tends toward provacative, much exposure,

and sloth.

If a dress code is enforced, it can perhaps help

to teach the kids the importance of proper appearance

and help them to suceed better in life!

I have to admit that personally I would love to slum around

in my cutoffs and raggy tee shirts, but

when I go out in public, I put on proper attire.

this is not old fashioned, it is just the traditional way.

hick - you're right, it's not the job of teachers to police students' attire. with a standardized dress code, they hopefully won't have to. the dress code today is a little harsher than it was when i was at VHS, but we had our fair share of whiners and complainers then too.

Part of the learning experience is exposure to real world situations. Some things you can learn from a book others have to be taught through other means. I agree with those that say having a dress code helps the students later in life when they have to conform to a dress code for employment. But it's deeper than that. It's about conforming to rules you may not like. It's about learning the proper time and place for certain things. It's about dealing with difficulties. Obviously we haven't been doing such a bang up job at that in the past 20 years or so.

I think the government should impose a dress code for all its citizens - one similar to VISD's. How does that sit?

Thank God I have the power to vote against such an absurd idea, but apparently, not every citizen does.

xc - I do not agree with your reasoning. You want to punish all for the mistakes of a few. Those few will end up in a bad deal anyway later in life. What makes you think a dress code will stop that from happening? A teachers job is to teach. It is not to be a fashion cop with a power trip to rule with an iron fist.

A dress code needs to be in place but, yeah I agree with fedup.The whole shirt tucked in and belt thing is a little much. Teens are really self concious about the way they look in their clothes and this part of the dress code can lead to teens with spicific body types to be teased. Not everyone feels comfortable walking around with the little extra hanging over their belts. Perfect example: The daughter of a friend of mine was sent home because she didn`t have a belt on. Well it ends up she knowingly didn`t wear a belt because she was afraid of being teased about the way her body looked. In this day and age who could blame her. I say the kids should be allowed to cover up what they don`t want seen. This can be done in good taste. Kids do have it a little tougher today compared to 10-20 years ago as do the secondary grade teachers,but there should be a middle ground on this portion of the dress code.

I agree with the statement that it should be up to the parents and not the teachers to police the students on their attire while attending class... However, when you look at the juvenile crime rate, the drop out rate, and the general lack of discipline amongst the youth of this town, I honestly believe a great deal of parents don't care enough or aren't mature enough to be saddled with this responsibility... Any deadbeat parent that would be ignorant enough to let their child walk out of the house wearing their pants around their knees or let them run around doing whatever they please is assuredly not going to worry about them adhering to any "school suggested" dress code... It must be enforced by the school district, because children need boundaries, they need rules, and they need discipline, and as sad as it is to say, you can't depend on some parents for that... And if education is preparing your child for the future, why not have a dress code, a uniform if you will? Unless they end up becoming worthless pieces of trash leeching off of the government, or career criminals, when they do enter the work force, my money says that they're gonna end up wearing a uniform, or at least have to adhere to a dress code anyways, so why not prepare them now?

I think it is OK except I don't think they should have to wear shirts tucked in and belts. That is such a hassle.

What a 'hick' comment.

If they are going to enforce a dress code, I say they should have to pay for the clothes. Personally, I think it is ridiculous. It is not the teachers job to police the students on attire. It is the parents job. Next thing you know, all the males will be required to wear high and tights and the females wear buns in their hair. Who knows, maybe the next thing females will be required to wear Burkas.