I'm not Christian nor do I put a label on my belief in God/Divinity/or what ever you wish to call a Higher Power.

I don't get offended when others pray in their manner or how they were taught. I rather see a moment of silence so everyone can pray in which they so choose, because that's what prayer is, a personal talk with God. Most of the time I think people that pray out loud are just showing others how many times they can repeat 'Father, God, Jesus Christ, etc in the same sentence. (I guess the more times they repeat it they feel Jesus is patting them on the back).

Anyway, if there isn't going to be a moment of silence then I would rather see either at one time or, on different occasions, a religious leader from the Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Wiccan, Bahai, etc. faiths that are represented here in Victoria. As long as its kept universal then I don't have a problem.

As soon as you focus it on one specific belief, idealization, etc then there is a problem.

Also, I wish people would look into their history more closely on the facts of this country and what it was founded on. Yes, the early settlers were getting away from prosecution of their Christian beliefs (from other Christians of course) but the founding Fathers weren't establishing this as a Christian nation, since most were Deist. If this Country was founded on Christan beliefs the Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc would be filled with God this, Jesus that, etc., etc., which there really isn't any mention of that in them. Also the monuments, statues, and buildings built in the early part of the American government have a lot of pagan and ancient mythological figures. How do you explain Confucius and Solon next to Moses on the Supreme Court building, or the Egyptian Obelisk for Washington's monument? Apollo at the Library of Congress? Mars at the Capitol? Learn your history. There are many books and documentaries that can help you further an education that stops when your teachers and professors send you home with what they want you to learn.

Oh, back on subject - if a prayer is from the heart and governs the tasks of doing what is right and in the best interests of the people, then by all means go for it. If it is silent or with various religious beliefs in acknowledgment, then great. Go for it.

If a pagan, or atheist, or Satanist, or even a Jediist (one who believes in the Jedi Religion [yes, the Star Wars thing]) get's offended, let them have their day in court (so to speak). If you want your beliefs spread out throughout the land then you should let others. Too many people claim their religious beliefs are being pushed aside. No, just narrow-mindedness towards other people that believe differently in Divinity.

what was read and signed by our senate has article 11 in it though. If you go to the link you provided(under translation) you can read it for yourself.

legion 357 you are right about pres. Adams.
However I would again point out that even thought the treaty of tripoli was written in Arabic in Arabia it was written in english in America and for the US Senate and every other source says articel 11 was present when approved by the Senate and Signed by Pres. Adams.

Freethinker, I commented before about the claims....
Here is another explanation..with links

The treaty was signed at Tripoli on November 4, 1796 and at Algiers (for a third-party witness) on January 3, 1797, finally receiving ratification from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797 and signed by President John Adams on June 10, 1797.

The translation of the Treaty of Tripoli by Barlow has been found faulty, and there is doubt whether Article 11 in the version of the treaty ratified by Congress corresponds to anything of the same purport in the Arabic version.[18]

In 1931 Hunter Miller completed a commission by the United States government to analyze United States's treaties and to explain how they function and what they mean to the United States's legal position in relationship with the rest of the world.[19] According to Hunter Miller's notes, "the Barlow translation is at best a poor attempt at a paraphrase or summary of the sense of the Arabic" and "Article 11... does not exist at all."[15]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_o...
born Jan. 2, 1875, New York City died July 21, 1961, Washington, D.C.
Hunter Miller
U.S. lawyer and an expert on treaties who participated in the drafting of the covenant of the League of Nations.

He practiced law in New York City from 1911 to 1929, served on the Inquiry, a body of experts that collected data for the Paris Peace Conference (1917–19), and was legal adviser to the American commission to the conference.

As an officer of the U.S. Department of State (1929–44), Miller headed the U.S. delegation to the 1930 Hague Conference for the codification of international law. His published works include My Diary at the Conference of Paris.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/t...

And to onestar, as you can see the treaty was signed President Adams.

I support a moment of silence in reverence, and to promote unity as a group of individuals come together to face tasks greater than they are. I also as a Christian understand that separation of church and state is meant to hold the peace in a land of various points of view. I thank God that I can worship as I desire in America and I also thank God, and our veterans as his vessels that I do not have to adhere to another's interpretation of religion. I hesitate on public prayer if it is intended for the reason of display. I support it, regardless of political view if a group prays together in agreement. Separation of church and state is one reason why our private religious institutions are as strong as they are here in America, historically speaking. Besides spending energy on this, I suggest to those of faith that we pick up the slack and display nativity scenes in our front yards, and pray for our government officials to make sound decisions.

Legion, who said that articles 10-12 did not exist? I have never heard anyone say that but you. I would think that would have came up in conversation but I have never heard it. Do you have a link? I can change my mind about something but you have not said anything that has changed it on this subject.

Your right onestar, it was the Declaration of Independence.."separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them" "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, "

I already talked about the politically expedited treaty of Tripoli.

@legion357,

You are making the issue broader than it should be. It is very simple:

1. A person of religious faith is proposing that local Government should say prayers before convening every day.

If everyone knows and understands this to be a contentious issue that divides and splits people that might otherwise come to consensus on other issues AND simply diverts attention away from real issues of substance then let's leave religion (or the lack of it) at the door.

Oh and if "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" is good enough for the United States of America, it should be good enough for Victoria Council.

to legion 357 and Staroflife

The US constitution makes no mention of "God Creator or Jesus". Also the Treaty of Tripoli specificailly says Article 11 reads:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...."
This was approved by the United States Senate and signed by president Madison. The ratification by the Senate was done in English

I think a prayer or a moment of silence would be great!

Should have been "I guess cramming ones views down anothers throat is bad, only if the crammies are religious." Atheists are harmless of that tactic.

One thing I wonder, the atheist or non-believer segment claims that they do not want to change any ones minds, live and let live, but yet anytime a mention of religion, prayer or faith is mentioned, they all show up to express their views. True that is their right, but why do they not comment about anything else?

I guess cramming ones views done anothers throat only applies if the crammies are religious.

Well, looks to me like the call has gone out to support a position. Is there anymore supporters of one belief going to try their best to hijack a thread in a vane attempt to sway opinion?

Of course we should have prayer before meetings. We can all bring our prayer rugs, bow down with our heads on the ground, and pray just like in government meetings over in Iran. And maybe we can end up with the same kind of society.

I love it when i see grown adults still believing in imaginary friends. That's all i will say.

Now that's a good point, you didn't site any 1796 treaty to make your point.

I like spaghetti to by the way. It's better than Moo Moo s fried chicken.

Forget Tripoli, forget the historically ignorant people who confuse the landings of the pilgrims with the founding of the United States. Most are missing the point here that people don't need prayer to "reset our moral compass". I'm not a Christian or identify with any major belief system yet my morals are perfectly intact. If you want to pray do it BEFORE you open the door to the county offices.

Get on with the business of Government and stop wasting our time.

PS. I would only support this if we could pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster

I think making the council frequently pledge to the city charter would be more effective.

I'll never understand the supposed oppression of the Christian. Throw a rock around here, and you'll probably hit a mega-church. I guess there just aren't enough opportunities to worship outside of the council chambers. This push is more about conformity & appearances than your right to worship. In the city government, I suggest we pray to the almighty power of economic & logistic wisdom and hold the council members accountable for their actions while on earth, and let [deity of choice] sort it out later. If the council or citizens need to pray for guidance (or forgiveness) before, after or during (to oneself) the council meeting, nothing's stopping them.

Freethinker, think about history in a complete context. The United State was a very young country, the Treaty of Tripoli was, more or less, a pay off to extortion to stop the seizure of American merchant vessels by the state sanctioned Barbary pirates. OF course, to appease them MAYBE wordage was included about religion to end the piracy.

IF the young United States had not "paid off" the Moroccans, Algerians ect., and had continued to use resource fighting the "state sanctioned" pirates, what do you think the outcome of the war of 1812 would have been?

IMO, with a large portion of the American navy and fledgling Marine Corps., half a world away, the British would not have only capture Washington DC and burned the White House, but would have dismantled the entire United States and brought it under British control again.

The treaty was proposed and signed under duress, IMO, for the greater good of the young America.

Good point, freethinker has his/her view of history and beliefs, or lack there of, and absolute nothing from the shores of Tripoli to the halls of Montezuma is going to change his/her view.

I say NO ONE can control our minds. If our city council members believe in God, other's opinion will not matter. They whom believe can take a few minutes of silence prior to the meetings and pray, asking God for guidance. No one except the enemy and God will know. Do not impose your believes on others and don't let other's impose their believes on you. If you believe than pray. Just as we sometimes read to ourselves, we can pray to ourselves. We will be praying with you. Prayer does not have to be outloud for God to hear and know our hearts. I say no matter what the outcome of this debate, make it a habit to pray to yourself prior to each meeting.

For three centuries up to the time of the Treaty, the Mediterranean Sea lanes had been largely controlled by the north African Muslim states of the Barbary Coast (Tripoli, Algiers, Morocco and Tunis) through privateering (government-sanctioned piracy). The Barbary nations considered themselves to be at war with any nation that had not negotiated a "peace treaty" with them for a sum of money. Hostages captured by the Barbary pirates were either ransomed or forced into slavery, contributing to the greater Ottoman slave trade (of which the Barbary states were a segment). Life for the captives often was harsh, especially for Christian captives, and many died from their treatment. Some captives "went Turk", that is, converted to Islam, a choice that made life in captivity easier for them.

President Jefferson declared,

"To this state of general peace with which we have been blessed, one only exception exists. Tripoli, the least considerable of the Barbary States, had come forward with demands unfounded either in right or in compact, and had permitted itself to denounce war, on our failure to comply before a given day. The style of the demand admitted but one answer. I sent a small squadron of frigates into the Mediterranean."

Hunter Miller 1931,The Arabic text which is between Articles 10 and 12 is in form a letter, crude and flamboyant and withal quite unimportant, from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha of Tripoli. How that script came to be written and to be regarded, as in the Barlow translation, as Article 11 of the treaty as there written, is a mystery and seemingly must remain so. Nothing in the diplomatic correspondence of the time throws any light whatever on the point.

Even though Hunter admits the articles where in the version read on the senate floor.

Also...yet evidence of the erroneous character of the Barlow translation has been in the archives of the Department of State since perhaps 1800 or thereabouts...

Well praying in the closet is for when you and God need to talk about personal things, and the world don't need to know. That is between you and God. But, we are told to pray over our food, and to even wash our hands before we eat. A lot is said in God's words. Prayers at meetings is to bless the meeting to help everyone understand what is best to do. But, if a person wants to bow their head, and say a silent prayer, that is their right. And I have family members, and friends that have fought to keep that right in our country. If people don't like our ways of life here. They can always go live where there is no rights,and see how that feels.I want to keep my rights. And I don't what a few hand full of people that don't think they need God to tell me I don't need God also.

No the entire treaty was published in major newspapers at the time with no public uproar over saying the United States was founded on the Christian Religion. And who is it that denies that article 11 did not exist?

IMO, the treaty of Tripoli was worded to expedite a end to piracy on the Barbary coast as quickly as possible. The young country of the United States could not afford to continue a war against the pirates half a world away.

Same old argument,Constitution rights "endowed by our creator", The treaty of Tripoli, a attempt to end piracy in 1796, the debate has never been settled as to the accurate translation of the treaty from arabic to english, some claim articles 10 -12 never existed, only as a letter from the Pasha of Tripoli.

Each one of us picks what we want to believe.

staroflife, the United States of America is not,in any sense, founded on the Christian Relgion. It is a historical fact! Just read the Treaty of Tripoli.

No less an authority than Jesus advised that we do our praying in our rooms, in private, with the door shut, rather than making a public display. Mt. 6:5

I think it's a great idea. Maybe w/God's guidance better decisions will be made.

Way to go Soliz!
I am sick and tired of the 5 to 10% of non-believers making the rules for the 90% of us that do. Look at where that got Madelyn Murray-O-Hair. This country was founded on Christen beliefs. We have sat silently by while our freedoms have been taken away little by little. If this country continues in this direction, it will end up in the same situation as any dictatorship, like Cuba.
Ask anyone of our servicemen and women that fight for this freedom. I bet that they have said a prayer numerous times throughout their time in war. It is like a slap in their face that the same government that would send them in harms way, would also try to take away the freedoms that they have shed blood for to defend.
Whew, I am through venting but I am also through being silent!

Look, we do not need prayer in the city meetings. I would like to just see them do their jobs. I am sick and tired of the spending spree that this council has been enjoying. Prayer has NO place in governmental business and if Gabriel wants to pray then do it beforehand and not asking the rest of the council to do as he wishes. Council do the JOB that I AM PAYING YOU TO DO!! and it is not praying.....

"Nothing fails like prayer"

Our forefathers did not found this country on the government pairing with religion. They wanted to escape that, as they saw the ills of such a union in England and understood that for there to be true freedom of religion, the government MUST stand apart from it and not appear to favor any one belief. That is why our constitution is a secular document.

The ignorance of commenters is one thing, but I'm shocked at the ignorance of a Council member as to the laws of this great nation. To suggest the issue is merely one of upsetting atheists is both absurd and to any patriotic American, this is blatantly offensive. The issue is the Establishment Clause of our nation's constitution. THAT is why prayer can't be permitted, for it's a de facto endorsement of a particular belief system which the Establishment Clause explicitly prohibits. There have been some elaborate attempts to circumvent this, such as attempts to make them non-denomintaional, but religion itself is a belief, one that is not shared by all, and therefore endorsing religion over no religion is the same as if the government endorsed Catholicism over Protestantism.

Lastly, the idea that this blatant disregard for our nation's constitution is ok because about 90% of Victorians are ok with it is deeply, deeply disturbing. Have we not seen enough evils from mob rule, from the majority subjugating the minority? We object if the rich ignore the law to take advantage of the poor, if whites take advantage of blacks, if men take advantage of women, if adults take advantage of children, so why does such compassion get jettisoned when it comes to religion? How can so many, who can so acutely see such abuses, become so blind so quickly to them when it's over religion?

If our forefathers taught us anything, it's to value freedom and fight tyranny in any form. Tyranny is no less tyrannical because many support it, and a nation where laws can be so flippantly disregarded is no nation at all. In the name of our forefathers, of our nation and its constitution, and of course in the name of true freedom over tyranny, every patriotic American, every REAL American, should steadfastly oppose such measures proposed by Mr. Soliz.

It would seem that a prayer issue should not be the big burning issue for Councilman Soliz.

Councilman Soliz, what about jobs? What about attracting new companies here? What about putting people back to work?

What about our roads Councilman Soliz? What about crime and gangs, Councilman Soliz? What about our durg problem?

You got elected Mr Soliz to be a councilman, do something instead of acting like a student in a civics high school class.

There's nothing wrong with a prayer before city council starts their meeting. As a matter of fact, the whole city of Victoria should get on their knees to pray FOR the council based on some of the council's actions.

But prayer before a meeting just does not seem to be a priority when people are out of work and there are other problems that need your attention.

Ok Gabe now we know you are a religious person. Let's get back to the real issues. Mission accomplished.

It's hard to believe that we have to ask for approval to do something that our forefathers founded this country on. Seriously,so what if you offend some people, you will always offend someone. I suggest doing it quietly. Those that are offended can start a country of their own.

There is already too much control in our religions. When, where, how, or not to do as we was raised to do. Like in a court, or a ballot. We should go with the majority rules. The rest can just do as they wish but, stop telling us what we can not do.If I want to pray in public, no one is going to stop me. If I go to jail for praying, then I honor my God. I would rather serve my God, than to find out in the end, that because I didn't pray, or stand up for my religious rights, I didn't make it to Heaven. So with a silent prayer, and you can move your lips, you don't have to say it out loud, I vote to pray, bless what God has given, or it can be taken away.

I pray! But I think a moment of silence is the best way to go. In that moment of silence I can think of anything I wish. I can put together a grocery list, plan the rest of my day or pray. No one will know what I am thinking and it is none of their business.

It upsets me that prayer is not part of our city councel. They could use it. It bothers me that God in general is being pushed out of our lives because of a few people that are "Offended" by God.

If they don't want to pray then they don't have to pray. They can do their lists but don't stop me from praying when and where I wish. That is between me and God.

I have to put up with their bulls_it beliefs but they don't respect my religion. That is wrong. Next thing you know they will be trying to do away with Christmas, Easter and Thanksgiving.

I am for a moment of silence in the beginning of each city counsel meeting.

In mny opinion, I think that would be nice touch. and its about the only thing left that is still free. At least, no one can increase the taxes on it --so far.

Good idea Gabriel.