My guess about Gren, aka BigJ, was like y'all said. Congratulations Mr. Gren-and-bear-it on the vast improvement in your sentence structure and spelling.

Gren...You're reaching. I never equated immigration with soverignty. Not once. A soverign nation has laws and borders. It's those laws and borders that need to be obeyed and respected. The Irish, German, Italian and other immigrants you mentiion from Europe came here and followed the established laws of the land, followed the procedures for becoming citizens and thrived. Yeah, they got the dirty jobs and were paid next to nothing, but in their desire to become AMERICANS they kept at it and their children and their children's children are fully American. If they could do it, whay can't people from south of the Rio Grande? Is the problem that they don't want to become American citizens but would rather keep the citizenship and culture they left behind even though that was so poverty stricken they felt they had to leave? Is that the problem?

"No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President". The Constitution had a solution to the problem of the first presidents not being native born. They WERE citizens at the time the Constitution was adopted. Since that early time, however all have been native born -- at least that's what most of us believe.

"Time for a history lesson!
This nation was built on immigration….actually illegal immigration."

What illegal immigration are you talking about? There were no laws regulating immigration when the first Eurpoean colonists came to the new world. If there are no laws, there are none to break. Yes, this country was built on immigration, but it was legal. Have you ever heard of Ellis Island, where Euroean immigrants were processed to begin the road to citizenship in their new home? Those people acted legally and if they could do it, so can the immigrants of the 21st century.

I said that in the history of national experiments that I believe the United States of America is the ultimate example. I stand by that statement. If you think there are better places to live, please tell me the names of those countries and tell me why you stay here where life is so terrible.

Ahh WWW bet all you dubyas stick together. National sovereignty and immigration are apples and oranges. We could have 100 million people enter the nation tomorrow and we will still be a sovereign nation. Immigration does not mean that a different government is in charge. But wait; maybe that is what you are afraid of, people with different morals, ideas, and beliefs than you getting voted into office.

I too believe that people should enter legally, but for reason that will probably confuse you. Immigrants should be here legally so that they are not taken advantage of.

Time for a history lesson!
This nation was built on immigration….actually illegal immigration. Our first president was a “naturalized” citizen. If you look at the immigration patterns of the US there are distinct eras where history has repeated itself. Irish immigration where they were treated like scum, discriminated against, given only bad jobs and paid them less for the work. Same thing happened to the Italians, and the Germans. Now it is happening to the people from Hispanic nations. What is interesting is that Asian people are flocking here in droves as well but I guess you don’t hear about that on FOX news.

So basically your attitude of us Americans are better than anyone else and we should watch out for our own is yet another repeat in history. Your attitude is not new, nor has it evolved much in the last 233 years.

And yes we were attacked. We went to war as we should have and victory was had…remember the banner? Wait, 7 more years go by and now we are fighting another war, but I thought we had victory. Ahh well, what’s $10 billion a month, not like we couldn’t use that money for something like health care….ohh me thinks me struck a nerve!

And now on to one of your followers
You believe in upholding the constitution? How about that nice patriot act that the last president pushed through. How many rights does it violate? “But they are after our children” good ole heart wrenching speech to get you to allow anything. How many times did he stutter during a speech?

To thewaywardwind:

THANK YOU for your stand on this issue! It is high time this issue is discussed with directness.

Yes, I'm a conservative and proud of it. I believe in upholding the Constitution of the United States. I believe in preserving my country as a republic instead of changing it into a socialist nation like the loopy liberals are trying to do. BOO! Did I scare you, Exile?

Gren- while I appreciate your facts, it was merely a question I had read and heard conflicting stories on. Chill out, no biggie. I didn't accuse her of anything, I was just asking. Geez... Next statement....

Why does she have 12 assistants? Are you sure your information is completely correct?

She actually, if you go by title of everyone working around her, has about 22 people helping her. Care to know about other first ladies? Don’t worry I pulled the numbers for you.

The lovely Laura Bush had 26
Mrs. Johnson had 30
Mrs. Ford had 28
And Mrs. Kennedy had a nice round number of 40

And why can she not practice law anymore…she can if she so chooses. Her license is actually on inactive status, not revoked. Lots of people choose not to renew their license if they are not actively practicing law. There are large yearly fees for renewal as well as time needed for the CE credits every year.

Next question please

J OLD BUDDY!!!!!!!!!!! Off topic, well sorta. A question really.... Why does Michelle Obama have 12 assistants when other first ladies only had 1? Oh and how come she can't practice law anymore?
Ocker you're so funny.....let it begin!

The last sentence is a dead giveaway...Hi J!

One of my favorite Dick Cheney moments:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOAk-7F1EVU

I don't blame him for not wanting to admit being in a globalist think tank that attempts to undermine America's sovereignty at every turn.

Legion357..." I do believe a banned poster has returned from exile"

I was thinking the same thing. The spelling, grammar and the "us vs them" quote is a dead giveaway. Won't be long before he's telling me he hates me. :)

HI, J!

"Second question, how can you say the Constitution doesn’t protect the rights of non-citizens, when it does in other amendments."

Well, now, "exile" the only place in the "other amendments" as you call them that non-citizens are mentioned is in Amendment XI, and that has nothing to do with protecting the rights of non-citizens. Amendment XIV states in part, "...nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisidiction the equal protection of the law." Note that the Amendment specifically says no STATE can do this. In the argument that got all this started, the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT arrested a non-citizen for questioning. The Amendment says NOTHING about the federal government having to recognize the rights and immunities of non-citizens.

"How can you criticized the President for stating the truth about social ills, when you did the same?"

I don't have any idea what you're referring to. I didn't MENTION the president at all. I was writing about my personal attitudes regarding non-citizens residing in the United States. The president never came up in the conversation. You'll have to explain this one better. But, as for as criticizing the president, I'll do that any time I please. I have the right under the First Amendment to do so.
.........................

Gren..."We have plenty of flaws it’s just that your patriotism blinds you from your humanity."

Well, gee, Gren, I have humanity. I reserve most of it for American citizens, though.

I think you were responding to Don with this: "What other nations you ask…try almost all of them in Europe and the far majority in Africa."

I'll grant that Europe is comprised mostly of democracies that allow citizens to change policy, but AFRICA? You're joking, right? In the immortal words of Julia Sugarbaker, "I don't think so, Carlene."

Ah, yeah, Legion I hear ya.

Hey, you knew it couldn't last, right?

Ohh ok, I had to read a few posts, but I do believe a banned poster has returned from exile.

Waywardwind.

How can you criticized the President for stating the truth about social ills, when you did the same? The president, rather his family, is from a community, a section of American society, that had witness and survive discrimination etc. Of course, the outlook from a minority is different from a majority. People from the outside need to understand that instead of being quick in harsh judgment.

Second question, how can you say the Constitution doesn’t protect the rights of non-citizens, when it does in other amendments. The problem with you is the “us vs. them” mentality you have. Anyone within the borders of this great union should be treated accordly to the LAW and to the Constitution.

Your statement among other is why I do not trust conservatives or conservatism.

Gren..."hopefully history will repeat itself and show that we corrected the problem of not caring for anyone who does not meet a checklist of standards."

I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Checklist of WHAT standards? Do you mean nit-picking little things like citizenship? Like not being a criminal? Like following the laws of the country? Are those the standards of which you speak? If so, then would you simply have us open the borders to anyone who happens to have the price of a ticket or be able to wade across the river? Does national soverignty mean ANYTHING to you?

You're right about one thing. We do tend to poke out noses into other countries affairs far too often. But as for as the war is concerned, remember that the United States WAS attacked. Would you have us simply turn the other cheek and do nothing? We did that after the Marine barracks were bombed, the USS Cole was bombed and the World Trade Center was bombed the first time. Just how many cheeks would you have us turn? I'd like to be able to drop one bomb and kill every member of al queda and the taliban, but it ain't gonna happen. As long as one is alive, that one is dangerous.

Don Mader.

You asked Gren this question, “If America is so evil, what are YOU doing about it, other than denigating it?"

Well let me tell you this, Don Mader. People like Gren and others in this area who is not of or against the status quo will not be elected, hired, or even be bullied.
I see a few posters on this site who are not conservatives are being either bullied or removed.

This site despite its hang ups gives those not of the status quo an opporunity to express themselves freely without being singled out.

Well look at me the big bad guy who doesn’t think this country is perfect…. I love trumping emotional debates with facts.

What other nations you ask…try almost all of them in Europe and the far majority in Africa.

What am I doing to change it? I am questioning everything that I know of that happens, I do not trust anyone to do the “right thing” because everyone seems to have an agenda. I write letters to congressman, I ask questions to those who want my vote. And I correct those who are so blinded by their pride they fail to see what is right in front of them.

And yes I do believe we should apologize for things we have done, how many times have we stuck our nose into other counties business. When was the last time we were not at war, and how long did that last. If you always think that we are the best and there is no room for improvement, then none of the problems will ever get fixed.

It was said that at one time slavery was lawful and we corrected that mistake, hopefully history will repeat itself and show that we corrected the problem of not caring for anyone who does not meet a checklist of standards.

I repeat my question:

"Because of our right to freedom of speech, due process and our method for electing people to run the country, etc., etc.; my question to Gren would be: If America is so evil, what are YOU doing about it, other than denigating it?"

Gren,

I don't claim America is perfect, but what other countries allow citizens to make changes the way they can here?

I repeat my question to you:

"Because of our right to freedom of speech, due process and our method for electing people to run the country, etc., etc.; my question to Gren would be: If America is so evil, what are YOU doing about it, other than denigating it?"

Gren...This isn't the first time I've thought the SCOTUS was wrong. They were wrong about Dred Scott, separate but equal education, Jim Crow and a host of others that have been since changed. The Constitution remains the trump suit. SCOTUS justices come and go, but the Constitution remains the bedrock upon which this country was built and continues to grow.

I'm glad the UK tossed out the Americans who overstayed their visas. All illegals in any country SHOULD be expelled. BTW, those totals you offered for other countries, pale in the face of the totals of illegals in the US.

You say I'm rooting for the home team. YOU DAMN BETCHA! I'm proud of this nation. I've never said we don't have problems, but, unlike so many others around the globe, we don't try to hide ours. We acknowlege them and try to do better. Sometimes it hurts, but THIS is the place to be. One of our biggest problems is that we have a president and many representatives who feel about America as you do; that it's a lessor evil, that it's something to be ashamed of and to apologize for.

America is the country where people who live in poverty only have one car, one color television set and maybe don't have a computer but probably have a cell phone.

And, no, I don't remember the civil war. I've got some years on me but I'm not that old. I have studied it, and you would do well to remember that slavery was legal back then. Doesn't make it right, but it was legal. That's another of those things that we corrected even though it was painful.

You may not like my statements but like them or not they are true. You may feel that the US is the greatest nation on earth, but remember you are rooting for the home team. We have plenty of flaws it’s just that your patriotism blinds you from your humanity.

For the most part I do agree with you wanting immigrants to socialize themselves and become part of a greater society. However it is funny how you can be against the Supreme Court in their decisions yet quote portions of the Constitution to fit your argument.

It took me a little bit to find the numbers but immigration to other nations is as followed
Italy counted over 11k illegal immigrants in 2000 mostly from African nations
Japan counted over 8 million illegal immigrants in 2006 mostly from China
England deported over 75,000 illegal immigrants in 2003 get this…most were from the US on expired work and student visas.

And on a final note, I was just wondering if you truly feel the way about if they are not citizens then it doesn’t really matter. Remember the civil war? I guess you can say that everything that was done to African Americans in the mid 1800’s was not that big of a deal since they were not citizens either…

www,

Folks like Gren don't like to face the facts that you pointed out (needing to learn the local language, no bi-lingual street signs or gov. forms, etc., etc. in another country).

I find it rather sad that Gren believes our country is so evil - perhaps Gren should consider living somewhere else - surely there must be at least one other place on earth that is less evil than America (Canada, maybe?). I wonder if I would be correct in guessing that Gren also believes much of the evil in our country is the result of greedy capitalist slave drivers getting rich off the sweat of the labor of poor working people.

Because of our right to freedom of speech, due process and our method for electing people to run the country, etc., etc.; my question to Gren would be: If America is so evil, what are YOU doing about it, other than denigating it?

Gren..."trading one evil for a lessor one"

That's an interesting take you have on the greatest nation on the planet. You may not like my attitude toward immigrants, but I do love the US and believe that, of all the national experiments of history, THIS is the ultimate. I find it sad you think America is only a lessor "evil" than some hellhole dictatorship, a place so poor that leaving is the alternative to starvation, or a collection of tribes that is a country in name only. You see, my attitude toward immigrants is simple. First, obtain an entry visa. If you come here to live, BECOME AMERICAN. Don't expect to remain what you left. Learn English, become a citizen, exercise your rights to vote and to free expression. Study American history and work to improve your lot. Don't come expecting welfare and don't sneak in illegally.

As for the 10 million or so American expatriots you mentioned, I'd be interested to know how many of them demand special treatment from their new countries. For example, do they find it necessary to learn the language or do they expect bi-lingual street signs, government forms, etc.? Do they expect free medical care? If they have children, do they want them taught in English at the local schools? If they are arrested, do they demand that a warrant signed by a judge be issued? Do they expect to be secure in their persons, papers and effects from unreasonable searches and seizures? If they can't afford an attorney, do they expect their adopted country to supply one to them at no cost? I'd also be interested to know if they entered their new country legally.

This brings up another great thing about the US...if people don't like it, there are no walls to keep them in.

The reason why people flock to us is the lie about the american dream all they are really doing is trading one evil for a lessor one...however if you look up the data, you will be suprised how many "americans" are living abroad rough estimates are around 10 million.

Gren..."wow, and you wonder why people around the world hate us..."

What I wonder about is WHY, if the world hates us so, millions WANT to come here and will spend/risk all they have to do so. If we are such an evil place, why don't they go to, oh say, France which was recently voted the best place in the world to live -- at least in a poll that I saw which placed the US at about number seven. The US is the destination of choice for, not only people who have nothing, but also educated people -- doctors, for example -- millions who want to escape from the oppresive societies in which they were born. I don't see people lining up to emmigrate to Korea (North OR South), Japan, China, Mexico, Lybia, Syria, Russia, Bosnia or any number of countries they COULD go to. They'd rather come HERE, where evil, mean spirited people like me live. WHY IS THAT?

wow, and you wonder why people around the world hate us...

Onestar...In the first place, the former VEEP didn't arrest anyone. I read the newspaper account posted and don't disagree that he was arrested and taken to some place for interrigation; I'd just not heard about it until this discussion.

Furthermore, I've said it before and will say it again. This person y'all are so exercised about isn't a citizen. I save getting irate for the rights of CITIZENS being infringed. You mention that the Constitution doesn't say a "person" has to be a citizen to be protected. You're right, it doesn't. However, it was SCOTUS decisions that extended the Constitutional protections to non-citizens; the Constitution doesn't specifically say that they ARE protected. I believe that there is a fundamental difference between citizen and non-citizen and I don't get upset when something happens to a non-citizen that would make me mad if it happened to a citizen. Non-citizens can be deported, citizens are protected from that. Non-citizens can't vote, citizens can. There is even one (at least) distinction between native born citizen and naturalized citizen; a naturalized citizen can't be president -- the governor of California can't be elected president because he was born in another country. So, there ARE differences between citizens and non-citizens and I don't care if a non-citizen is inconvenienced somewhat. If he doesn't like the treatment, there is nothing keeping him from leaving and returning to the people's paradise of Saudi Arabia. My only comment to him would be, "Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya."

I cannot fathom how delusional a person must be to write a letter like this.

If you really believe that you are "I am an American First kinda guy who believes our way of life is the best. " Then you must admitt that to arrest a "person" without a warrant and deprive him of access to the courts and to a lawyer is improper and that Cheney is a nutcase

Onestar...I know about the fourth and fifth amendments and what they guarantee. Once again, this is a personal thing with ME -- not the founding document of the nation. I am concerned with CITIZENS of the United States and not with citizens of OTHER countries. If citizens of other countries aren't happy with the way they are treated here, there is nothing keeping them here. They can return to whatever hellhole country they came from. If their loyalty is to a foreign government, they should be living where their loyalties lie. I believe that national borders are sacred things and should only be crossed LEGALLY. I never claimed to be a warm and fuzzy person. I am an American First kinda guy who believes our way of life is the best. If people come here looking for something better, after jumping through the legally required hoops, I fully support their becoming citizens who then have the the same rights and privileges of native born citizens. If the person comes here looking for something better but doesn't want to become a citizen, I would just as soon see them either not come in the first place or just go home if they are unhappy with their plight. By the way, I feel the same way about Americans who go elsewhere to live. The first thing to be done is learn the language -- don't expect them to kowtow to you just because you don't understand. If you find yo don't like it there or if you feel that you've been discriminated against because you're an American, you can always come back. Don't stay and make everybody miserable including yourself.

Dear thewaywardwind; You got to be kidding me. you said "I said I wasn't concerned since it didn't happen to a citizen."
Apparantly you do not remember what the US Constitution says and I will remind you of what your forgot....
Amendment IV
The right of the people (it don't say citizen) to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.... and also..."Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury," these are the foundations of the freedoms we all enjoy and thank God people like cheney are no long in power.

Onestar...It isn't in the Constitution. I didn't say it was. I said I wasn't concerned since it didn't happen to a citizen. Take your next shot.

To thewaywardwind

I missed that part of the constitution that said you had to be a citizen. Could you point that out to me please

Onestar...Yeah, I found it. I hadn't heard about this guy. I'd be more upset about it if it had happened to a citizen, though.

To thewaywardwind;

Did you find your grain of salt???

Here ya go...

http://www.seattlepi.com/national/409...

Onestar...Sorry, I'll have to take THAT allegation with more than one grain of salt. Without some sort of confirmation that it happened, I'm afraid there isn't enough salt in the ocean to provide the grains needed.

Ok, then Dick Cheney is a nutcase

oops, I meant "nutcase"

Lets see if I got this right, Dick Cheney supported arresting people in the middle of the night without arrest warants. then under the cover of darkness move them to a jail across the country where they could talk to no one not even their family. They were then not allowed to acess to a lawyer and they were held for weeks without charges or anyone knowing where they were. Then later let go without any charge being filed.
Sounds like several violations of the US Constitution to me and You call him a Patriot. (This happened to a medical Doctor in San antonio Texas.)