Familyman, you bring up a couple of good points, I know quite a few doctors here in town that prescribe what is asked for and plenty of it, why, perks from the drug companies. And as far as teachers, I only know of one over the years who shared prescription drugs with students, and as much as parents and outsiders talked to the principal and school district, nothing was done. And BTW, that teacher taught under the same principal who is running the gang fights at East.
Drug test all the teachers and all the students on a regular basis. Not just one or two students every 6 weeks. If the test is positive then proceed with the legal aspects of the case. Fire the teacher and suspend the student and have then both go thru a rehab program. I know this will be a costly program but if you want to fight the war on drugs it will take money. It is the right thing to do for the children!
@Joshuaagalvan...looks like you just validated Saltgrass post. For the rest of you, please feel free to contact the VISD and ask if they have given instructions to the cashiers not to give out change. I also seriously question "A three-month, undercover operation which a Victoria Police Department officer yielded a small amount of drugs and resulted in at least one arrest".
Oh sorry TxHunter, this was from another thread...I was using it as an example of her "patting herself on the back". I'm sure it is directed at anyone who dares to think differently than her. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it though, I know I won't.
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I find it hard to believe that someone sells drugs because they are mentally ill. That is one big stretch to excuse their actions.
Carollee, I know quite a bit about mental health...I worked in a mental health facility for many years. There is a difference between being lazy & being mentally ill.
What you claim to "be" is relative....where have you traveled, where did you go to college & what is your degree? If you are going to try to impress & intimidate with all your accomplishments than please share what exactly they are. I, for one, would like to see your credentials to see if they are as impressive as you seem to think.
I'm all for 17 year old ADULTS being put in jail. Unfortunately in TEXAS 17 year olds are ADULTS! Sounds like GOP lovechild advocates the young people of Victoria experiment with illicit drugs. Listening to this guy, I feel fairly certain he has a criminal history.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I support the VPD and their efforts. Why wouldn't we want to send a message loud and clear? I guess GOP Lovechild and others see no harm in young people pushing drugs through the hallways of our schools. I get it GOP.... I see where this would be a good plan.........whatever, you my friend are ridiculous. Just go back to smoking your synthetic pot.
Boring...... I went to Memorial high. Ask any high schooler high school is the EASIEST place to buy drugs. When I was in high school there was dozens of guys who just walked around selling drugs. If that investigation took more than a day our police dept. is a friggin joke...
I have never read so much BS Children please go to your rooms.
way to go el69runnerIt is big business. The Feds, state and local police would rather go after some kids or a Doctor that keeps a 9-5 job than to actually get hard drugs like coke and speed off the streets by going after someone who might shoot back.The war on drugs is as lame as the one we are fighting in the middle east, but Cheyney isn't getting rich on no bid contracts.
Think about this;Being an addict is BIG business and generates alot of income for: Court System, Parole officer, Probation officer, Counselor, Half-way houses, SATF-SP (Substance Abuse Treatment Facility & State Prison), Jails, Prisons, Bail Bonds, etc,etc.. What would happen if all the addicts were cleaned up or rehab? Alot of lost jobs. So do you honestly think the money makers want these programs to succeed and put them out of business? These might be harsh statements, however very true. Some addicts strongly feel "Hey, they should be paying me, because of me they all have a job".
Ah, victorianbybirth, my comment might have been self-confident (though true; all except the last description are pretty objective in nature), but it was elicited, as I pointed out, by someone calling me a name. I don't see any other instance where I have "patted myself on the back." I have been accused by some people whose opinions I value of being coldly logical, but like Aristotle, I prefer plain honest rationale to emotion-inducing rhetoric. Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way or comes off as pretentious. I am just being true to my beliefs and values.
I never claimed everyone "on the fringes" or whatever is mentally ill, but statistically, a disproportionate number of inmates/delinquents in this country are. If our country invested half of what we spend on jails on mental health facilities, our society would be much better off. But I'll save the staggering statistics for a blog I plan to write on the subject.
Sorry if your coworker would be "offended," but I'm personally offended at the stigma attached to the term "mentally ill." There's nothing inherently wrong with a person because they might suffer from depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, or some psychotic disorder. Having a mental illness is no different than having diabetes or cancer; it is a physical affliction caused by a chemical imbalance, albeit one which unfortunately often affects people's abilities to make good decisions. Are you saying your coworker would rather her son be deemed "bad" than "ill?" Or that he is just mysteriously wicked/lazy/etc. for no good reason? Or perhaps Satan has a hand in it? I don't know (nor did I claim it to be fact) that he is ill; it was only one hypothesis of many to explain dysfunctional behavior.
One more thing: mentally ill people are not necessarily victims, until unsympathetic people and a harsh social system push them into that role. My whole point is that rehabilitation for dysfunctional behaviors can create functional individuals in society better than incarceration can in many cases.
Now, obviously many of you disagree with me or just plain don't like me based on my opinions, but I still wish you well. Adieu.
TXHunter part two:
[YOU: "Treating them like hardened criminals (even those who have gone a way down that path) is not only heartless; it's ineffective."
Do you have any proof to back up that claim?]
MY REPLY: Since this is a social science discussion, we don't normally speak in terms of "proof" but rather in terms of "evidence" or "support."
From The Annie E. Casey Foundation:
"One group of adolescents at greatest risk of failing to make successful transitions to adulthood are delinquent youth who end up in the 'deep end' of the juvenile justice system, in its detention centers and other locked institutions. These youth come disproportionately from impoverished single-parent homes located in disinvested neighborhoods and have high rates of learning disabilities, mental health, and substance abuse problems.
The Casey Foundation’s juvenile justice reform agenda is designed to improve the odds that delinquent youth can make successful transitions to adulthood, primarily by reforming juvenile justice system so that they lock up fewer youth, rely more on proven, family-focused interventions, and create opportunities for positive youth development."
[YOU: "Try as a society to care for and/or rehabilitate those who are marginalized"
Who makes the decision that they are marginalized? What happens when we go light on them because we think they are marginalized and they go out and commit a murder? I'm not saying that is what would happen in this case but think about it.]
MY REPLY: Again, this is an illogical argument. "Marginalized" is not an arbitrary word: it means disadvantaged by the social system, either via socioeconomic standing, mental illness, race, gender, etc. Your assumption that rehabilitation efforts equals "going light on them" shows that you and I are coming from completely different value systems (I champion humanism, and I'm guessing you do not). To assume the overburdened prison system is more likely to prevent future murderers than programs which seek to fix the root of dysfunctional behaviors shows a lack of education in the areas of psychology and sociology.
At this point you are just throwing meaningless "what ifs" at me.
I am tired of arguing; I've made my point: I felt the need to speak up for those who can't speak for themselves. You and I will just have to agree to disagree. I sincerely wish you peace and justice in your life.
I find it interesting that you go from an immature, aggressive comment like, "CB, How right you are. In the real world mamaj doesn't have a clue. Kinda sounds like she is jealous. She is right about one thing. Daddy will take care of it. Most of the time that is done with proper parenting," to trying to hold a rational discussion. At any rate, let me address your attempt at a more civilized conversation:
[YOU: "kids do drugs everywhere:
I never said that St. Joe kids didn't do drugs. If you think that I am naive enough to thing that then I am not the one that's naive. I do know that my child doesn't do drugs.]
MY REPLY: I never said you said that. My point was to support mamaj's assertion that there is an inherent inequality to the treatment of drug users/dealers at St. Joe and public schools. Which is the truth.
[YOU: "Let me tell you as someone who went to St. Joe"
Now did your parents sacrifice for you to go to St. Joe for the drugs or to get the best education you could get?]
MY REPLY: I don't even know what you mean by this. It seems like a thinly veiled insinuation, but it simply doesn't make any sense in the context of this conversation. If you are trying to insult me, please be more direct about it.
[YOU: "I certainly hope it's not that wealthy parents are better.."
Again I never said that. The fact is that not everyone that sends their children to St. Joe are wealthy. We sacrifice a lot to give our child the best education (IMO) in Victoria. If you or anyone else chooses not to do that that is your choice but don't chastise me for it.]
MY REPLY: I didn't chastise you for sending your kids to St. Joe. My daughter attends private school. That doesn't mean I agree with the very real disparities in our society. And just because some of the kids at private schools aren't rich (mine isn't) doesn't mean they don't share some privileges by proxy.
It was your comment about mamaj, "Kinda sounds like she is jealous," followed by the comment about "proper parenting" that made me think you were referring to a connection between socioeconomic status (based on ability to have one's child in private school) and parenting ability. What were you referring to?
To be continued...
I'm outta here...These posts are getting too heavy...However;I have met a lot of people who are never wrong. They never take back that which they spoke which proved to be either stupid, inane or simply wrong. They waffle, redefine and deny, but they are never wrong. These people are incapable of saying "oops," much less, "I'm sorry," You find them everywhere. They might be a pastor, a politician, a CEO or a President. They might be your mother- in-law, father-in-law, dad, mom, brother or sister. Of course, it could be you, but you won't notice that. One common thing they share is that they are NEVER wrong. Of course they are wrong, misinformed or just plain stupid in the way they view and filter their world, but they are never wrong in fact. Their inability to say "I am sorry," or "I was wrong," is legendary in the family, the church, the office or the government and the damage inflicted on those that fall victim of these people can be humorous, mildly annoying or catastrophic.
This is what I was referring to...you said "I am only "misguided" if that term means educated, well-read, & well-traveled, with excellent critical thinking skills."You seem to start off every comment with your horn a tooting...don't break your arm patting yourself on the back.
I think my co-worker & her son would take offense to your label of "mental illness". Just because people don't conform to social norms does not make them "mentally ill". It seems everyone that lives on the fringes or partakes in risky behavior is a "victim" in your opinion. Making "victims" out of those who perpetually make poor choices helps no one since they are not expected to learn from their mistakes. For every action there is a reaction, that's what people learn from, if there is no reaction then we as a society are doomed.
How exactly is it that I am condescending? Because I am logical and analytical? Or maybe you are referring to the fact that I defended myself when I was patronizingly called "misguided?"
Your one personal example does not prove any point, except that perhaps one child suffers from mental illness that has gone undetected. I don't believe in "good" or "evil," only in biology and environment. So if the environment was exactly the same, as you claim (which is rare; studies show, for example, that first born, middle children, and "babies" all share certain tendencies, and I'm sure the same applies to twins since parents can't give the exact same attention to each child), then perhaps biology explains it. Even a sociopath has a mental illness which he or she cannot help. People with behavior you describe most likely belong in a mental institution rather than a prison.
Let me give you a personal example from my own life: my cousin had a severe problem with drugs as a teenager and young adult. He was in and out of jail repeatedly. It also so happened that he was severely mentally ill (most people who are habitual "users" are), and it is my personal belief that his treatment by the system as a criminal rather than as a patient contributed to his disease. He eventually killed himself. Now my example doesn't prove anything either, except that emotion can be used to cloud logical arguments, and that the world is not so simple that you can classify kids as "good" or "bad" seeds.
Name-calling, by the way, is a sure sign of a weak argument.
It's not EZ..as a kid you have a choice to pick good friends r bad friends.However, in today's society, kids r more under pressure to fit in than back in the day. Back in the day when a person went to jail/prison, parents and the person were ashamed and wouldn't talk about it. Nowadays, not only do they brag they have been locked up, they throw a party for them when they come out.I was a Transporting Officer and would hear these kids brag about where they had been locked up. It was like a status to be locked up in ........ Unit".Simple, look at all the role models getting busted for drugs...(IN every sport including )What does Lindsay Lohan say "My parents didn't raise me to Lie, Cheat and Steal". I guess this is an incentive she took on her own. But we only blame the parents...
carollee...condescending much? Why don't you go coddle these poor drug dealers & see where it gets you.
A girl I work with has twin sons. One is a drug dealer & has been since he was 12, the other is the star football player at the highschool. The drug dealer graduated from selling weed to selling crack because "there ain't no money in weed". He quit school & has quit his 1 honest job because it is too much trouble for him....he makes more money selling drugs. He doesn't use the money to help his struggling mother, in fact he mooches off of her every chance he gets. He doesn't use drugs, he never has, he sells them because it's easy money. He has had every opprotunity presented to him & he rejects them because it requires too much effort on his part, his twin brother, on the other hand will be attending college in the fall. Same family, different outcomes...oppression & marginalization has nothing to do with it, it all boils down to choices.
Doesn't VISD have a Drug Testing Program?Other ISDs do it to protect and help not only their students, but the ISD's Federal monies.
TXHunter writes "In the real world mamaj doesn't have a clue. Kinda sounds like she is jealous. She is right about one thing. Daddy will take care of it. Most of the time that is done with proper parenting."
Let me tell you as someone who went to St. Joe and VHS, kids do drugs everywhere. mamaj has a valid point because the kids at St. Joe only get expelled (this happened when I attended there) while the kids at public schools go to jail, and the community applauds it! In what universe is it fair that rich kids get a break that poor or middle-class kids don't get? What exactly are you insinuating about mamaj's "jealousy" and "proper parenting?" I certainly hope it's not that wealthy parents are better...
Some poor kids have it rough because their parents are too busy trying to provide food to give them the attention they need, so some turn to drugs. Some rich kids get neglected because their parents are too busy trying to keep up with the Joneses and spend their time accumulating more wealth, so some turn to drugs. The common theme? They are KIDS. Treating them like hardened criminals (even those who have gone a way down that path) is not only heartless; it's ineffective. Treat them like criminals at 17, and you ensure that they will be criminals at 35. Try as a society to care for and/or rehabilitate those who are marginalized and question why they turn to crime at such a young age, and effective solutions might be found. It doesn't matter what their socioeconomic background; that's just a universal truth.
On another note, might I just point out the irony that many people who regularly cry "less government interference" automatically applaud military and police actions, no matter how ethically questionable? It's just an interesting paradox I've observed...
I've seen a lotta people walkin' round with tombstones in their eyes...
of course it makes sense, you got the money honey they got the dope.... i am pretty sure that all the kids at these private schools have access to pretty much whatever they want and have the privelage of not getting in trouble, cuz daddy will take care of it. well here in the real world the law takes care of it, so lets be fair go check these private schools and see what you find. but wait you dont want to ruffle those feathers do you?
saltgrass...BINGO!!! If parents would ask their kids about the drug dealers and also ask some of the teachers (they see a lot but turn face), they would find out who does it. I just heard four boys talking about the kids who smoke weed (bud), pop pills, snort hydrochodone, they would catch so many. Check behind the football field by the ag building even the the theatre building. Mamaj....you are right, I know a girl who whose daughter has been with a boy at st joe and he does drugs (at school) but no one will tell because of who he is. Who cares!!!!!! Do the drug dogs go to stj...i bet they don't. It is funny how these kids attend different schools but end up at the same parties or backroads to snort or smoke the same stuff!!! lol Good job VPD!! Go check the other schools now.
FYI...Any person (child, student or adult) who sell drugs in Victoria has to pay "taxes" to the larger gangs, which in reality is engaging in organized crime. The larger gangs will not let me or you sell drugs without them getting their "taxes/cut".We single out adults...what difference does it make if I go to school and buy drugs or go to the bar and buy drugs, same results, your dealing with a "dealer".The two adults who got busted with this kid were just moving for someone else. Some of these kids are so "clicked" they don't need an adult as a middle man.
A three-month, undercover operation...I could have accomplished the same results in say 3 days...You can find more information about these kids by asking the lunch cashier in the school cafeterias. Kids come and ask for change for a $100.00 or $50.00 bill. Why, to give change for their transactions. It had gotten so bad the school has told their cashiers not to give out change anymore, but kids still try.Whether you bust one kid working with several adults or a truck passing thru to Houston, the VPD should be commended, they are doing their job...keeping drugs off our streets.We also have the same problem at our lower schools. I agree, Ure, sent me the wrong message...I guess it's ok to engage in this activity as long as you don't get caught.
JD, with all due respect in return, I am only "misguided" if that term means educated, well-read, & well-traveled, with excellent critical thinking skills. Please read up on Mexican drug cartel problem & then get back to me about whether some small-time teenage Xanax dealers are in the same universe. There are two issues here: as someone mentioned, it's too easy for kids to get pain meds & the like (usually from adults in their life); the second, more serious issue is the dealers of narcotics like Ecstasy. Where there's "X" or coke, there is a link to a drug organization. I'm saying, police, please target the adults participating & manipulating the teenagers & give the kids a chance at rehabilitation rather than tossing them, like so much garbage, into a jail cell.
no matter what the police do,it's wrong. People want the town cleaned up of drugs but when they do that, then someone says they should be doing something else. This town is full of complainers that sit back and do nothing!
They need to go after the old school characters who have been involved in drugs, many who hold top positions in Victoria.....wonder why they never get in trouble, they have the inside scoop and so does their entourage, the rich just get richer.
honestly it has nothing to do with background for these kids, like i said go and check St. Joe and these other private schools where kids have access to money and i bet you anything that you will have a bigger bust and no story written cuz their parent is an attorney or a dr. let get real, its a problem within the whole community and i am sure it always will be. it doesnt matter whether you drive a pinto or a bmw.
carollee stated: "And the police can then do their sting ops on adult dealers, who are the real problem." carollee, with all due respect, you appear a bit misguided. The "real problem" is the dealing and using of drugs, regardless of whether juveniles or adults are involved and any and all measures possible need to be taken to stop or reduce it.
I'm not saying don't prosecute criminals. I'm saying that teens who do drugs are usually more victim than criminal--neglected by parents, from extremely poor backgrounds, etc. And there is an ethical concern about sting operations involving minors. I'm saying if we treat high-risk kids with rehabilitation & counseling to get at the root of their behavior rather than round them up & throw them in jail, our society will see better long-term results, and as a product of that, get drugs out of school by reducing or eliminating demand. And the police can then do their sting ops on adult dealers, who are the real problem. I'm saying the means (using kids) doesn't justify the end (catching the big fish).
Good job VPD...dont listen to the jackwagons that always do nothing but complain. Its not anyone's fault but theirs for selling drugs, wether it be cocaine or prescription pills. Blaming the doctors or the police or anyone who tries to keep these little hoodlooms in line is what got us to this point to begin with!
Outstanding work! You have to wonder about the people who seem to be against the police doing their jobs though. I for one don't want drugs being dealt in the schools, or anywhere else for that matter and anything law enforcement can do to help stem the tide I am grateful for.
When is the real dealer (the doctors that prescribe the pills) be held accountable? Doctors do not control the pills they give out. They do not test to see if you are taking the drug. They do not call you in to bring in your meds to check if you have the meds you should have. They just give them out willy nilly to who ever says they need them. It is a money machine for the doctors. The patient comes in and wants pain killers and with little effort the doctor writes the script for the meds. The Hydrocodone goes for $5 each for a 10mg pill. Some doctors prescribe up to 300 pills per month. 300x $5=$1,500 profit to the patient. The cost of the doctors visit is usually paid for by medicad. I don't sell drugs but have had to buy them off the black market before I went to see my pain management doctor for my relief. It is a big business in Victoria. Talk to the doctors about keeping better control over the meds they prescribe. (Narcotics)
I see things are normal here in Victoria. If the police do nothing they are lazy and good for nothing. If the police think outside the box and come up with a way to help protect our kids in school, they are cowards and lazy cause they did not catch the drug cartel in Mexico.
Why not check at ST. Joe or Nazarath, i bet at those schools VPD would have a big bust, but wait their kids go there so they dont want to embarass their families. Should kids do drugs no no no, but come on your wasting your time with these little people, go to the main dealers. Your wasting my money VPD.
I vote for drug testing. It gets the losers out of the workforce and will do the same in our schools.
I wonder how many kids, in need of adult guidance rather than adult betrayal & trickery, now have something permanently damaging on their record, increasing the likelihood that they'll continue down a path of criminal activity? How about not taking the easy way & using kids to get to adult offenders? Or how about using tax dollars to fund programs that give kids in this boring town something to do besides drugs? Short-term, headline-grabbing solutions aren't worth the long-term cost to our youth.
Ure must really think he's J Edgar Hoover of Victoria. First he snares Scare Face on Putney St. And now The West Side High School Drug Cartel. What crime syndicate will his crack commando force neutralize next?
Good thing for Victoria's adults these fools weren't here during the '60s at VHS and SHS, because many of our outstanding citizens would have been ruined for life. Just like these children. Can't this town see what we're doing to our children?
Not one teacher caught - better luck next time, VPD.
JackDuece- I bet that the undercover cop was no Johnny Depp! :)
Geanie...that was the exact thought that ran through my mind when I read that!!!! If he were going to dole out advice, maybe it should have been....don't deal drugs.....not be careful of who you sell to.....
Donnie Brasco infiltrated the mob. VPD infiltrates the Mexican Mafia. Scratch that- they were brave enough to pose as a high school kid. Wow. I'M IMPRESSED!
Ure said. "The message is clear: Be careful of who you sell to because it might be an undercover officer in school."
Is that quote a "typo"?! Or was Ure serious?? I guess they are more interested in catching the drug deals, not stopping. . . .
why would east need a plant when all the bad seeds seem to be at west ?
haha, i keed, i keed.
if there was a plant, i predict east hs drug dealers will be absent tomorrow.
Is it possible there is a plant at the East high school as well?
some good work here. in the future, i predict any new students will have a hard time buying drugs, ha.
seriously though, that teenage kid is getting those drugs from some source and so on.
Wow this is cool! Way to go Victoria PD! I am impressed. Can't wait to read the rest of the story tomorrow.