Vet 43,

I said I doubted your story, not called you a liar. I say this based on me living in Gulfport, Miss. for something like 50 years. I never saw a CBF hanging over a drinking fountain. Is that clear enough for you?

Now having lived in Mississippi over 60 years, I have never met a Klansman nor do I know any. White sheets????? LOL LOL LOL is that anything like the Black Panthers at the voting site????

You however have made the statement several times the SHAPE website is based on lies. If you know so much prove it. Otherwise I say my information is sourced and accurate and you do not have the ability to prove it wrong. Oh yeah, ain't no way you read the entire website, too much info posted to have done so. For you to say you have is just not true.

George Purvis
Southern Heritage Advancement Preservation and Education

Gafftop,

I will not dignify that web site with a comment. And you just called me a liar again and I take that personally. What part of my comment regarding segregated drinking fountains do you challange? Maybe some folks still have a few white sheets in the closet. It is 2011 and decent people no longer burn crosses to prove how "pure" they are. Making up a web site with half truths is not going to prove how "pure" the sad cause was. The south lost. 145 years ago.

Vet43,

Look man what is so scary about going to a website and proving it factually wrong? Feel free to post your info and spread your knowledge. I know it is gonna be an awful thin layer but---

Gee How dumb I am, I thought the South lost because they were out manned and out gunned from the get go. I mean isn't that usually how one becomes defeated?

Well back up your words prove it is a lie. You won't simply because you can't!!!!!!!!!!!!!

George Purvis
Southern Heritage Advancement Preservation and Education

Gaff, you said, "My overall point in that slavery was not the cause of the war period. It was one of many causes for secession which in 1860 was legal."

Secession was legal in 1860 and now you are implying that it is illegal? With regard to the Constitution if it is illegal now it was illegal then. Gaff have you ever bothered to read the US Constitution? I guess not so here goes.

The Preamble:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union........do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Notice the term "perfect Union" - Union being capitalized.

Article I, Section 8, Item 15

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Hmmmm, that makes secession sound like insurrection and treason - get a rope?

Article I, Section 10, Item 1

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation.

A confederation? Eh, I wonder what they meant by that ?

Article II, Section 1, Item 8

Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:--“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

Article III, Section 3, Item 1.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them.

Article IV, Item 2.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land.

Article IV, Section 4.

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and....... against domestic Violence.

Following is an excerpt from George Washington's letter of transmittal of the new constitution to Congress.

"In all our deliberations on this subject, we kept steadily in our view that which appears to us the greatest interest of every true American, the consolidation of our Union, in which is involved our prosperity, felicity, safety--perhaps our national existence.........".

And finally Andrew Jackson summed things up about state rights during the Nullification fight with South Carolina.

"The right of the people of a single State to absolve themselves at will, and without the consent of the other states, from their most solemn obligations.......cannot be acknowledged. Such authority is believed to be wholly repugnant, both to the principles upon which the General Government is constituted, and the objects which it is expressly formed to obtain."

Secession was legal? Never was then or now, even the Confederate Constitution didn't allow it - they knew it would lead to chaos.

Gafftop,

Again, I went to the web site in question and I will not walk into a black hole that absorbs light and distorts truth to advance a lost cause. The South lost the war because thier entire culture was built on the ownership of another human. This site is just another way of selling a lie and I will not be a part of it.

Posted to Williams and Vet43
Reason why the war wasn't over slavery.

Now someone please show me why you think it was. Please use the established thread on SHAPE website.

George Purvis
Southern Heritage Advancement Preservation and Education (SHAPE)

vet43,

Yeah you have backbone allright my apologies for that comment. What you don''t have is the KNOWLEDGE To dispute the facts. That is the real reason you won't go back. Doesn't matter everyone here and there will know I am addresssing you and in the process will be proving just hopw ignorant of the facts you really are.

George Purvis
Southern Heritage Advancement Preservation and Education.

Williams

Kentucky Secession doc. posted with source. Doesn't matter if Ky. was in the Confederacy for 10 minurtes they were still in. Again I prove you ignorant of the facts. Shall I post Tenn. and rub a little salt in the wound? How about I post some Ky. CSA units just to add insult to injury.

Again the location is website below + "Articles" + Kentucky Secession.

George Purvis
Southern Heritage Advancement Preservation and Education

Gafftop,

I have a backbone. It served me well in the USAF. As far as that history spinning web site you so strongly believe in it is not worth a second visit. It is twisted beyond any touch of reality.

Writein, if you're a history nerd, why is it your facts flop around like a fish out of water? Do you only read parts that suite you? Why don't you do a little reading on Carpetbaggers from the North, and why they came South as Republican agents of the government, after the war. That article you posted w/a refference to double standards you're a way off base on that aculade...

Williams

What you really are is self absorbed wanna be historian would thinks he is better than everyone else. Put your ego aside for one minute and do this --- go to Southern Heritage Advancement Preservation and Education website. Go to the "Articles" forum. I am gonna create a thread "Kentucky Declaration of Secession" just for you. As an educated person surely you can do that.

George Purvis

Williams are you addressing me about Kentucky and the border states? If your statement about freeing the slaves is correct then that would mean slavery is still legal in the United States!! For an educated person you sure slip up a lot!!! Anyway I understand your feeable attempt to make a point, the truth of the matter is regardless of how the state went, Union or Confederate, these states still sent men to both sides. And in all honesty, the argument you are trying to present doesn't amount to a cats hairball.

BTW Tennessee left the United States June 8, 1861. I am sure your revised history book has that fact in it someplace.

Oh yeah when are you gonna grow a backbone and bring all of your knowledge to SHAPE, I do have a thread posted just for you and I have been making post there.

George Purvis
Southern Heritage Advancement Preservation and Education (SHAPE)

rolling stone.

Thank you for asking, but I am afraid to answer all of your questions I would have to write a book. Please go to the Southern Heritage Advancement Preservation andEducation website and you can find all of your questions. We have a search feature that works wvery well, simply use serach terms such as Lincoln Sumter Lee so forth and so on. I grant you I have more sourced material that you can learn.

My overall point in that slavery was not the cause of the war period. It was one of many causes for secession which in 1860 was legal.

George

Itisi.

I know what I am talking about. I am history major and a history nerd if you will. So, let’s not go there. Besides, you about on my last nerve anyway.

Here is a fact for YOU. On December 27, 1960 Governor Magoffin asked the Kentucky legislature to take a side during the crisis. The Legislature voted to stay in the Union. Outgoing Vice President John C Breckinridge, was elected US Senator, but was removed when he join the CSA cause and created SHADOW government in Russellville. That means Kentucky never officially left the UNION.

Mr. Williams

Writein, did you know that Kentucky was the 13th star on that there battle flag. Ck ur history...

Sandwichh.

People are not as stupid as you always suggest. Lincoln or even the American government cannot outlaw slavery because they didn’t want Kentucky, Missouri, and Eastern Tennessee to go pro-rebel. I am an educated person. So don’t try to pull the wool over someone’s eyes.

Mr. Williams

What is your point if I may? Lincoln's speech laid out the issues between the Republican Party and the people and politicians in the south in a clear and logical way that only Lincoln could do.

Lincoln freed the slaves not under federal jurisdiction. He had no legal authority under the constitution to do otherwise, but even so slaves everywhere started deserting the farms and plantations.

Lincoln declared that Fort Sumner was federal property that he would defend. He made that perfectly clear that as chief executive it was his sworn duty.

The South went ahead anyway starting a war even though they were outnumbered 4 to 1 (not counting slaves) and with hardly any industrial capacity compared to the North. There strategy should have been not to lose but instead they tried to win at first. Later they switched strategy (only in the East) but by then it was too late.

In addition their form of government was too weak to support a major war effort – as Shelby Foote put it the North could have won the war with one arm tied behind their back. What took them so long is ineffective military leadership for the first years of the war. Once Grant and Sherman got in control the South was doomed.

rollinstone.

We all lost regardless of race. Look at the cesspool of Washington D. C. and tell me different.

I had read that speech before. It only serves to prove Lincoln didn't approve of the institution, it does not prove he went to war to do away with the institution. I will post more on that on the SHAPE website. Anyway with the Northern Black codes in place what makes you think free blacks would have been welcome in the territories??

I believe most Negros were returned to slavery if their owners could prove ownership. Heck what about the the loyal slave owners? Their slaves were protected and kept in place by the Emancipation Proclamation and the Union army. What exactly is your point???

Why don't you sign up on the SHAPE webiste we can really post some good stuff there?

George Purvis
Southern Heritage Advancement Preservation and Education.

Woof Woof,

The name as you posted is only one of many used. Thank you for such an fact filled post.

Legion357

Close but still not right. Anderson moved to Sumter WITHOUT orders. Lincoln did not send a supply fleet he sent an invasion fleet to Charleston and Pensacola. On the SHAPE website is the makeup of the fleet to Charleston.

vet43, I have a tread just for you on the SHAPE website, grow a backbone and post there. The 1960's have nothing to do with the Confederacy, no more than the Chicago riots have to do with the Union. perhaps you should do some research on the KKK. Check out the flag they are carrying. Oh yeah, it was the United States flag that brought slaves to America. And speaking of Black brave Americans, check out SHAPE's "Negros In Gray" website.

WoofWoof your second post is a load of Dung. Do some research, educate yourself.

For the most part most psosters on this forum have little better than a third grade understanding of the war. I suggest you find some real facts to support your argument before posting. Doing so will make you look less ignorant of history.

Find me here-- Southern Heritage Advancement Preservation and Education.

George Purvis

At no time did the slaves in the south rise up in revolt during the Civil War. Most just ran away from their "owners." Approximately 180,000 ended up joining the Union Army. When captured they were either summarily executed or returned to slavery, after getting their "minds right."

The people lost? You're assuming the slaves were not people?

If you want to know the cause of the Civil War and Lincoln’s position on the slavery issue I recommend you read his February, 1860 Cooper Union speech.

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creati...

The slaves fought with the the "Army of the Potomac" against the southern rebels.
One of the worst things that could happen according the the rebels was arming the slaves which would incite the slaves.

Gafftop,

History defends my postion. The war was over the right to keep slaves. If the south was so kind to thier black citizens why were there still "White Only" drinking fountains and restrooms in the 1960"s. Why did it take the National Guard to get black children in schools. The Confederate flag you celebrate has been the center point of every Klan rally and cross burning.

Above all it disrespects all the brave black Americans that have given thier lives to defend this country, The United States of Ameica, that lie in Arlington and other places of hallowed ground.

God bless the United States of America and the hero's of all races that wear our uniforms with pride and dignity and protect our great flag. That would be the one with 50 stars and 13 stripes.

Southern Aggression is a stretch.

John Brown fought against the slavery supporters in Kansas, he too sacked towns and killed people just like the slavery supporters did in Kansas. By election Kansas became a non slave state, but that wasn't good enough for John Brown. He raised money and arms from northern states and Canada for his raid on the Harpers Ferry US military arsenal. His raid on a US Arsenal in Virginia convinced the original seven CSA state to secede fearing more armed insurrections by abolitionist.

When S. Carolina seceded the governor order the surrender of all US military installations, the US closed them all and moved the men to Fort Sumter. the CSA attempted to hold peace talks but Lincoln refused and said he would re=supply Fort Sumter with food only...unless the CSA interfered, then he would send reinforcements and ammunition.

So... Boom! the civil war started, Lincoln then raised enlistment in the army to invade the CSA, that led to the other 4 CSA states to secede, they weren't going to enable a occupation of their states that before then they weren't a party of in the dispute.

The correct name is WAR OF THE SOUTHERN REBELLION. The Confederate rebels went to war to break away from the United States.

rollingstone.

I would love to have more on Sherman if you don't mind.

In all honesty, the war wasn't about slavery. No one cared North or South, there is to much documentation that goes against that argument for it to be true. I have the posted on the SHAPE website now, but will be reposting it in the next few days for the benefit of the readers of this forum.

Regardless of how you feel about slavery NOW, the institution was legal THEN.

The cause(s) of the war-- money and settle the argument of who had the greater power, the people or the federal government. The people lost.

George Purvis

Roswell, GA got off pretty light compared to some other places Sherman visited.

And really Gaff, if I may, do you think we would have had a "War of Northern Aggression" if slavery didn't exist and if the South didn't try to force it on the rest of the country?

And finally there's the wide spread revulsion of treating human beings like live stock, do you think that may have swayed public opinion in the North and even in several places in the South?

Still no factual reply from GOP. Wonder why???

Oh well I extend an invitation to one and all to come to the Southern Heritage Advancement Preservation and Education website. I do have a thread opened for Williams and Vet43 who posted to the "Con" article like this. To date they have failed to defend their positions. Why am I not surprised????

George Purvis

Hey GOP think we can get a a US/Texas plate on it with a photo of dead Indians? Maybe one to honor the women and children of Roswell, Ga. that Sherman sent north? Big old brave Yankee soldiers making war unarmed womem and children --- 'bout right

You are long on the cute comments, short on facts.

George Purvis
Southern Heritage Advancement Preservation and Education.

As usual in most places, ignorance rules. When the war started slavery was legal in the US. Slavery ruled under the US flag. Six months after the start of war still no law banning ownership. The KKK's main flag is the US and their own. Sad, they don't teach factual history even in college anymore.

WANTED: YOUR OLD AMERICAN FLAG
Please consider sending all worn American flags to our Stars for our Troops program. Each one that touch the lives of 50 US Veterans or Soldiers even after their flying life is done! http://www.gettysburgflag.com/StarsFo...

If we feel that putting the confederate flag on a licence plate is right and OK then why don't we also put a Nazi swastika on one as well.

if these these folks had any smarts they would have pushed for a "Sons of Confederate Veterans Slaves" plate too.

Both sides are right and both sides are wrong.
Free speech is not just for the speech you like but also for the speech you don't like.
In fact it was probably put in the constitution for unpopular speech.
It either is good for all of us or it is good for none.