Gary,
Paul claims to be an Apostle. Unless you are a Catholic--Peter was the first Pope etc--all the Apostles are pretty much equal. Then you make this claim:

"I dont believe the scriptures support any kind of heierchy. That is what the Bible calls Nicolaitin; it means to conquer the laity."

So you don't believe in a hierarchy, but Peter is Paul's "elder," his superior, then you pull out the old discredited fundamentalist saw that the Nicolaitans are those that want to "niko-victory over + laos-the ordinary folks =conquer the laity." Where did you get that from? Grady's "Final Authority"? No one really knows much about the Nicolaitins--that is who they were and what they believed--except of COURSE Mr Grady and the sainted Jack Hyles--oh, and Bob Jones--they know EVERYTHING.

The NEGATIVE depths of your knowledge so called amazes me.

BorgLord

Peter was Paul's elder in the Lord, Paul never saw Jesus in the flesh as far as we know. Imagine Peter was given the keys to the kingdom & here comes some upstart believer who actually consented to & was guilty of the stoning of the saints, getting in Peters face. Jesus called Peter satan at one time. Stephen the deacon rebuked his elders all though they they were not Christians they were still fellow Jews, it cost Stephen his life.

There was great tension between Paul, Mark & Barnabas they had to separate

The Bible says rebuke with all long suffering, speak the truth in love, Receive not an accusation against an elder unless it be out of the mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses. Those witness have power to call down an Apostle or any person in the church.

I dont believe the scriptures support any kind of heierchy. That is what the Bible calls Nicolaitin; it means to conquer the laity. Pay, pray & obey, not in a real New Testament church. I am the head of my wife, but my wife has every right to rebuke me if I get out of line or off scriptures. I am to give my pastor double honor but if he gets off scripture or lives unclean then Gods Word takes the preeminence. His Word is our absolute not a pastor, husband etc. Paul said follow me AS I FOLLOW CHRIST, the second he quits following Christ is the second I wont follow him or any one.

There should be no big I s & little yous in church, The Bible says let him that is greatest among you be your servant.

Who do you say that I am bashing?

I dont mind to much if its just personal attacks, but when I perceive the intent is to hinder the Word of The Lord going forth, then the Lord Himself comes forth to take care off the situation. Which you have witnessed.

The Bible says the Word of God is sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul& spirit, it is a discerner of the thoughts & intents of the heart. There is no creature that is not manifest in His sight, all things are naked & opened unto the eyes of whom we have to do.

The question was asked to Jesus; who is my bro? He said they that do the will of the Father is your brother.Its written not every one that saith Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom but he that doeth my will.Paul said NOT all Israel is Israel.

Now earlier you bashed me for saying that Gods Word is not a myth, you wanted prof, I have DVD from the library called; The Exodus Revealed it shows footage of chariot wheels, axles etc at the bottom of the Red Sea at the point where Moses most likely crossed. Egypt will not permit removing the finds, because Egypt is still smarting over what happened to there army 3000 yrs ago. Readers Digest put it out.

"Was Paul bashing Peter when he rebuked him for being a Hypocrite?"

So Gary,
Are you an Apostle? Paul and Peter were apostles, were they not? I think at least in a scriptural context, the Apostles were at the top of hierarchical heap. It is one thing for you to call down a fellow believer--however you want to define him, and quite another for an Apostle of Jesus Christ--one who had actually seen Jesus--to call down one of his fellows.

Think about that Gary. Scripture tells us that Apostles are first. Just because they do it doesn't mean you get to.

Was Paul bashing Peter when he rebuked him for being a Hypocrite?

BorgLord, you have a made it your hobby & life's goal to bash Christians, bash God etc. you should be the last person quoting scriptures that you supposedly dont believe in. Most of so called atheist are really just God haters, I will try to give you the benefit of the doubt that you dont fit into that category,

You claim we Christians bash one another, what is your definition of a Christian? Some folks think that just because they were born in America that makes them Christians etc

Many people claim Christianity today, talk is cheap. To accurately speak Gods Word turns peoples worlds up side down, That was a remark made about the Apostles & there preaching 2000yrs ago. Nothing has changed, that same Gospel preached today will & does have the same results,

You can call it bashing I call it GRACE. Is was Gods grace to me when 27 yrs ago some one had the courage & concern for me to tell me the TRUTH. At first I was fightin mad, I was raised in a church & went to a privet religious high school etc. I tried to be good & honest. You think I liked when some one told me that all my most righteous works were as filthy rags to Christ? And unless I would be born again I will not see the Kingdom?

Christ Word brings division, but most of that division should between us & unbelief, between us & satan etc.

Gary,
Must I point out that Paul is talking here about other Christians? I'm not interested in all that other stuff. Paul is talking about how Christians evaluate one another--not "lost people." I think the point is pertinent because of the way you Christians are bashing each other. Nothing else. That's all. Period.

BLord

Paul is clearly teaching that one is supposed to compare oneself not to another human but to Jesus Christ. According to Christian theology he alone is the only sinless human being because he is the God-Man--100% God and 100% human. When one uses him as the standard for comparison one has no room to judge anyone else...or so I thought.

I agree with your interpretation as long as we realize a few things, To judge some one as you have pointed out means to make the final decision on who will succeed & who wont. I agree that that should not be done because God alone will make that decision as He will weigh out the evidence, searching out the heart its intents,motives & actions, works etc.

That being said it is every Christians duty to first live a Christian life before men, that also includes verbally pointing out what Christ taught & lived. Do we agree that if a person is stealing I would be in line by pointing out to him that stealing is against the Gospel? That is not judging in the grand sense of the word. But is making a normal & acceptable statement to the guilty person, & it is to be made for his own good. To say he is going to hell because he steals would be crossing the line in my books, maybe he is starving etc, thats why there will be a judgement day.

Yes Jesus is the sinless one, but you & I have the opportunity to be just as sinless as he is. He that is born of God does not sin but has past from death unto life. In my flesh I fall short everyday, but its not my flesh that is going to heaven, Jesus died that our souls may be saved, but it wont happen if we dont accept His free gift.

Gary,
Methinks, thou doth protest too much.

I never singled YOU out. I merely made the assertion as general concept I thought all you Christian types would agree with it.

Paul is clearly teaching that one is supposed to compare oneself not to another human but to Jesus Christ. According to Christian theology he alone is the only sinless human being because he is the God-Man--100% God and 100% human. When one uses him as the standard for comparison one has no room to judge anyone else...or so I thought.

So Gary what are you upset about?

BLord

Who am I judging? And why are you judging me?

A word of kind advice. Lay off the personal attacks. Is not that what you told me, does it not go for you as well? That line becomes a cheap cop out, something to hide behind, it insures no accountability.

"BLord, I dont get your point with Rom 14."

Gary, I'm surprised that you don't. read verse 4: "Who are you to judge the servants of someone else? It is their own Master who will decide whether they succeed or fail. And they will succeed, because the Lord is able to make them succeed.""

Now make the application.

BLord

I dont get your point with Rom 14.

BorgLord - your point was well made - and I agree with you that people don't read and study the Scripture - they pick and choose and allow the religious doctrine to guide them. I love ya, Brother!

Rebecca - never surprises how people pick and choose from the Bible to make their point.

Newcowboy,
I am extremely familiar with the Sacred Text--it was after I REALLY read it that I became an atheist. Most people don't really know what the Bible says. Most only know what the minister, preacher, priest or rabbi tells them it says.

But I thought Romans 14 was a good commentary on the theists on this thread that were ripping each other.

And Rebecca makes the winner point of the day!

New, it should surprise you more when Christians use the bible to justify discrimination.

Surprises me that you would quote Scripture - BorgLord.

Romans 14:1-4

Welcome those who are weak in faith, but do not argue with them about their personal opinions. 2 Some people's faith allows them to eat anything, but the person who is weak in the faith eats only vegetables. 3 The person who will eat anything is not to despise the one who doesn't; while the one who eats only vegetables is not to pass judgment on the one who will eat anything; for God has accepted that person. 4 Who are you to judge the servants of someone else? It is their own Master who will decide whether they succeed or fail. And they will succeed, because the Lord is able to make them succeed.

Ok my brothers, lets forgive each others past sins, eror in judgement etc, For the most part I am just trying to give a heads up in conection to child molestation. I my self when first confronted with these crimes just kind of shruged my shoulders & thought oh thats to bad, the person who was giving me the report noticed my lackadaisical attitude, he quickly said what if that was your boy that it happened to? I thought for a minute & it hit me.

I now firmly believe that is each & everyone of us responsibility to keep our churches clean. I am not advocating being a critique or a complainer, but also dont wont to be found asleep at the switch. Most of us Christians dont want to cause trouble because we are sheep, but there comes a time when we like King David the shepherd boy have to put down our harp & pick up our sling & by faith send that rock(Christ) right between that giants eyes, Normal a rock in a sling wouldn't hardly kill a rabbit, but when the Holy Ghost gets behind it watch out devil.

This is good so I wont to say it in all caps; THE BOY OR GIRL YOU MIGHT SAVE IN THE FUTURE MIGHT VERY WELL BE YOUR OWN.

I was at my high school reunion at St Joseph some time back, we were at the homecoming game, they had a young person pray over the loud speakers before the game, they said; dear Lord make us as excited about you as we are about this game. Oh I liked it, Made me a little proud of my religious roots.

God Bless GW

It is not our responsibility, as Christians, to judge other's actions, beliefs, or faith. Of course churches have those that cause trouble, have personal motives, don't follow their morals, break the rules, because we are all sinners and are at different phases in our walk of faith. And, yes, some never get it. It should be our goal to become more "Christ like" in our everyday life. None of us will ever be perfect, but it is possible to constantly improve yourself. In doing so, you will become an example to others. Personally, I don't think attacking each other's faith and/or morals on a blog is accomplishing anything for either side. I think you need a new topic... like politics!

Jared- Thank you and I wholehearted agree.

My exception is solely in reference to the Church is guilty as well as Catholic's association is evil. The Church is not guilty, people are. I don't know that our leaders were as transparent as they could/should have been. Giving the perimeters that our bishops operate, I think overall they have reacted well. I/we weren't in their shoes at that time. They may well have done what they thought was the best at the time. Bishops are human, complete with all frailty that accompany. Vatican II spells this out very well-

Hindsight is a wonderful tool, just not one that we were equipped with when we left the factory.

It is a horrific, deplorable set of events, but we cannot change the past. It does not make us guilty.

Our Church is not the only religious that must wear the crown of the past events evil's throne. That is not justification; a simple fact. We all are painfully aware our Church failed miserably many times in it's past.

As such, this does not allow for selective judgement. That is void to my very core of beliefs, as I believe it is to any reasonable man.

Me, as well as all of our brothers in sisters carry this burden.

Tophat, I don't mind, as long as it is kept civil and respectful, dialogue is good.

On a side note: Regardless of who you are, if crimes are committed, then the criminal ought to be penalized.

Gary said:: "My assumptions concerning Mr Tophat are from my previous conservations with him."
________________________________

Gary-
I do not know what "consevations" means in this context; but I am positive- I was not involved in whatever that is.

That Sir; is an absolute bold faced lie. Not a personal attack, a simple statement of fact.

If "conservations" means conversation(s) in the Gary White Dictionary, I have never (nor would I) had a conversation with you. No chance- period- end of story.

You may continue to attack me and my religious association, as in this forum that (sadly) is possible- In other avenues (should that ever occur), I would strongly suggest deferring. I am insolently principled and act accordingly.
I will always accept your comments as your opinion- I will never accept your unrequested, non-topic judgements on my core beliefs.

Jared- my apologizes for misusing your (as usual) excellent blog's comment space.

Wriein

Whether you know it or will admit to it, your true intent & desire with me is not a drive for truth or love of God

Your plan is the same as what they had in mind for Jesus; that was to trap Him And eventually have Him executed or in this case banned from this site.

Spirits dont die, just the vessels that they use. I suggest those same spirits that anointed Pilot & the religious leaders of that day are with us today planing the same schemes.

Borg Lord & other atheist, I hope God can speak to your heart as we witness history repeating itself.

Borg Lord

Thanks, My assumptions concerning Mr Tophat are from my previous conservations with him, I also witnessed frustrated attempts from others on the topic as they tried in vain to have people look at the subject objectively & open minded. If you read closely I already made the point that not all people are guilty of looking the other way.

I unfortunately have seen these same actions that I am crying out about in my own backyard as it were. Its a sick pattern that is all to common, Penn St is just one example there are many others, & no doubt many more to come if we just allow business as usual.

Mr Williams ok one at a time, You site the fact Mosses married a black women, I am not sure what kind of African woman she was was, many of the folks from northern Africa are mixed with folks from the Middle East.

Further more & more importantly I/you cant make a doctrine out of just one scripture, especially when it is coming from the Old Testament. The Bible says out of the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses let the truth be established. Another words we need to find 2 or more scriptures that are saying the same thing before believing & accepting that it is the mind of the Lord concerning any doctrine.

Ex; The Bible seems to clearly say that we are to be baptized in the titles of Father, Son, Holy Ghost, but further study reveals that there is only one correct way to be baptized, & that is in The Name Of The Lord Jesus Christ. I can clearly prove this by by following the pattern of confirming Christ teachings with 2 or 3 witnesses.

As a rule I normally dont respond to you for the same reasons Jesus did not respond to His critiques, He remained silent when asked if He was the Son of God. He knew there hearts & there intentions.

Also you show great disrespect for Me & God with angry & scary demands. With your attitude that you normally posses I wouldn't give you the time of day even if I knew it. I have tried to caution you, alert you about this issue to no avail. I have explained some of these questions before & suggested that we will have to agree ti disagree but you cant seem to live with that.

You are a gifted & talented person, I feel that you are using your gifts to hinder the Lord & His Word. Jesus told the Pharisees that not only do they refuse the Kingdom of God But hinder others as well.

Finally some of my answers you seek will be deleted by the Vicad as well know. You accused me of attacking some ones faith, prove or apologize.

Gary,
A word of kind advice. Lay off the personal attacks. One bad apple does not the whole barrel spoil. I am profoundly opposed to religion, yet I recognize that there are many fine believers out there who are just as outraged by the criminality of some of their leaders past and present as I am.

Gary.
I am going to repeat myself.
If I am so wrong as usual, then how come you are avoiding your statements about interracial marriages, Rome causing the Marxist takeover of Russia, and Rome’s plan to take over the Middle East mainly Israel?
Answer the questions, Gary White.

Mr. Williams

Gary.
Usual? Yes I am I am usual on the mark. Do you really, really want me to go back and dig up statements you made? I don’t have to go that far, Gary White.

You told Tophat, “Why because most of you & yours refuse to show courage”. You are calling Tophat a coward are you not? By the way what are “you and yours”?

If I am so wrong as usual, then how come you are avoiding your statements about interracial marriages, Rome causing the Marxist takeover of Russia, and Rome’s plan to take over the Middle East mainly Israel?

Answer the questions, Gary White.

Mr. Williams

Gary,
I agree. We must prosecute criminal behavior no matter in which denomination it occurs. Churches should not be allowed to cover up, stonewall, ship out or otherwise impede the rapid apprehension and prosecution of those guilty of criminal acts.

Truth that!

I am sorry but I am not done yet;

To expose/attack crime,corruption & illegal activities is bashing no one but satan.

That is one thing that Jesus taught & practiced. WHY DO YOU THINK THEY KILLED HIM? And most all of His followers from that time on. (theres more to come). Other wise we could say that Paul was guilty of Peter bashing when he with stood Peter to his face & basically called him an hypocrite.

Now with that off my chest I wish to gently/respectfully encourage my Catholic friends to hold each other accountable, especially your leadership.

We are our bros keeper, & there must never be any diplomatic immunity given to any. That includes Penn St, my church, Rome etc.

Sincerely GW

Jared

Well put.

BorgLord

Sure you can find scandle every where, in most any church or nation. But when that church/nations , leaders & its its people refuse to take responsibility, by sins of omission, cover up & an overall refusal of transparency that is unacceptable. Especial when they try to hide under the self proclaimed assumption that they are Gods special servants & to question them is considered rebellion etc.

Gary, I hope your New Year is going well. Re: vain attempts to save face, I would have an issue there. I follow truth where it leads me, instituion or not, religion or not, church or not, atheism or not, all that matters is truth. As BorgLord mentions, any group of human persons will have fallible people. I don't think this invalidates a belief system but should cause for close inspection. I say inspect. Challenge the claims, but always be willing to follow the truth even if other leave you, if other want your life because of it, "what profit does a man have..." There are plenty of horrible actions by Catholics, heck our first pope denied Christ three times before the morning following Christ arrest. The problem is that a person's moral failures do not disprove or prove a proposition. If that were the case, you would say that I cannot even know 2+2=4 because I have fallen in the past.

BorgLord, I don't know if my eyes see something so different as yours. Yes, there may be many windows, but there is one Son or Light of the World to shine through them (sorry, couldn't help it ;)).I am a human person and so suffer with the same questions you have, "Why am I here? Why do I suffer? What is happiness?" I find these answers in Jesus Christ. As I draw closer to Him, He encounters me. I really cannot describe it much better than receiving divine caress. Sometimes it is in the reception of beauty, understanding of a theological point, or the witness of a beatified action, but most often it is in the ordinary, everyday occurances that I find Him. And that my friend, is what I find so glorious. I need not be a cleric, imam, Temple priest, priestess, warlock, upper caste, or monk to encounter Christ. Though I am absolutely fond of the Dominicans, I do find that I am a Franciscan at heart. ;)

Writein

As usual you are off the mark; before I go any farther show me on Borglords site where I attack Tophats faith.

Gary,
Tophat and Writein, both make very timely points. Catholic bashing seems to be one of the few prejudices left that is acceptable. The truth is that if I want to bash religion, the pickins' are mighty big. Evil is not confined to only Catholicism. I can find scandal in Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Assembly of God, United Pentecostal, Orthodox, Mormon, Jehovah's Witnesses' and yes Catholic churches--not to mention the Televangelist pasture which is ALWAYS unusually verdant. And why is that? Because as human organizations, constructed and maintained by humans, churches and the various Christian denominations they represent are full of humans with ALL the foibles, failures and downright evil they--we--are heir to. Read Elmer Gantry sometime.

I oppose religion because I find deplorable that obviously human institutions claim authority from THE INVISIBLE GUY IN THE SKY (TIGITS). When one works for TIGITS one can just about get away with anything if TIGITS told them to do it.

Again Gary, read Elmer Gantry.

Gary.

Maybe you should read John 8:7 which says, “Those without sin cast the first stone.” Maybe you should look within and look at yourself before casting stones at faiths of others. You said this in your last post, “I stood with truth & what’s right”. Ok Let’s talk about truth here and stones you have casted. Three or four months ago, you stated that the Catholic Church was the reason why Marxism existed in Russia and Eastern Europe. Here is the truth Rome had nothing to do with Marxism or politics within Russia. Second wasn’t the Orthodox Church the dominating force in Russia?

Moving on to another stone you thrown, didn’t you four months ago you stated that Rome or the Roman Catholic Church is seeking to destroy or enslave Israel and the Jewish people? Didn’t you also made a comment that your church discourages Interracial Marriages? Doesn’t that goes against the God’s love and isn’t a slap to the face of Moses’ Black wife, Zipporah?

How can you accuse anyone guilty when the Bible stated “judge not, yet he be judged”? Your church isn’t all innocent either especially with your church being anti-interracial dating is proof of that.

Do not say I am not telling you the truth because COMMENT HISTORY doesn’t lie.

Mr. Williams.

Tophat

I dont believe you are guilty by association, I do believe you posses the same mentality that many of your leaders have; You Are So Preoccupied with vain attempts to save your institutions good name & reputation, all at the expense of future victims that will no doubt materialize soon. Why because most of you & yours refuse to show courage. (not all). And do the rite thing.

I can speak because I have been in your shoes; I loved my church, its pastor, leaders etc, I would of died for them, & thought it a great honor. But when push came to shove I stood with truth & whats right, (with the help of the Lord) & at great cost.

Your actions or the lack there of is what will indite you, you can label me a troll & push the coward (delete) button & hide behind Catholic bashing all you want to, it still wont change the facts.

Gary- Your personal attack (of what you perceive as my guilt by association) is both unwelcome and false.
Enough said.

BorgLord- You make such a valid comment expanding on Kyle's. Yes- it is very true and valid - We only see things from our vantage point. A wonderful clarification, and to a degree - an explanation.

Catholic bashing is in great practice in certain forums- this is just one. I turn the other cheek-

Turn the other cheek are you serious? The phrase Catholic bashing should not be used as a shield/excuse for not being honest, transparent & forth coming when dealing with your constant sex scandles. The best way to stop future child rape is to deal with its culprits today.

If you are guilty of cover ups then your just as guilty as the perverts who did the crime there selves.

Catholic bashing(so called) is what you/we should expect when you start to make up your own rules that injure peoples body's & souls.

Jared, I have often heard Catholic apologists say, "That the best way to learn about the Catholic Church is from those in the Church." And certainly to learn about their experience within that Church it is helpful to talk to its communicants. However, interior/exterior views of stained glass windows to the side, that leads to a one sided experience of reality.

To really learn about any institution one needs to go outside the official friendly channels and see what everyone has to say about the institution.

The same Catholic Church that you extol as "the one true Church of Jesus Christ" is the same Church--along with many Protestant and Orthodox Churches--that brutally condemned a good many heretics--those who believed differently than the official dogmatic position--to imprisonment and sometimes death. The same Church that until the 20th century opposed democracy, science and social progress. The same Church that teaches scientifically dubious ideas about abortion and contraception.

Kyle makes an excellent point when he says that there are lots of other windows of which not only you, but we all only see the outside. To really know what any institution is like you need to see the inside and the outside. With the Catholic Church I've seen both. And I know all I need to about it.

Kyle, I don't see arrogance. Can you explain?

Borderline arrogance- if the reference is towards me; Yep, guilty as charged.
In the matters of God, family, and country- I am arrogant, quite assuredly. I can even provide more nouns and adjectives to the selection.
Catholic bashing is in great practice in certain forums- this is just one. I turn the other cheek-
To the subject at hand; sex is a sacred act of love between man and wife. Controlled birthing is unrelated.

Kyle, thanks for the example of someone failing to live by the Church's teachings.

Tophat, I agree with you on Fry. Although I do find him a good actor. He did a good job with his character on "Bones." My favorite theologian/actor is this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=654_0l...

By the way, in case any are wondering, this is my favorite theologian/musician: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJkrZ1...

Borderline arrogance.

Personally, I would not place any credence on anything Stephen Fry utters. He is witty- but certainly not an expert on anything but Stephen Fry.
That being said (and to each, his own) - the stain glass thread is a perfect example. One cannot appreciate the value and beauty unless viewed from the inside.

Although, perhaps I do need to change my outlook, after all you have many experts on sex, like this man "inside the church".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europ...

"However, like a stained glass window which is much more easily read from the inside, sex means something and may be best seen from inside the Church."

From what I understand, it's very often seen in the cloisters. :-)

It works both ways, Jared, and you seem to forget the salient reality that you are on the outside many other windows...

Hicktoria, and Chesterton spoke about that very paradox. From one side the Church is accused of being obsessed (see Kyle's quote from Fry) while on the other side She is slammed for not being sexual because it offers the gift of celibacy. As often is the case, the right teaching is orthodox.

Church and sex? No there is an oxymoron if your a Catholic priest...

Kyle, well that is silly. It sounds like the Church is actually speaking on sex and not, well, mutual masterbation which seems like an accurate label of "safe sex." I can definitely see Fry's mistaken point of view though. Often times people misunderstand sacred things and to an outsider it can appear difficult to interpret. However, like a stained glass window which is much more easily read from the inside, sex means something and may be best seen from inside the Church. You ought to come to an RCIA program and here more about it if you are interested.

OldRustyBucket1, nice. Much has been lost with the exit of the hug.

Our son Courtney has long called safe sex HUGS.

" It’s the strangest thing about this church, it is obsessed with sex, absolutely obsessed. Now they will say we “with our permissive society and rude jokes are obsessed.” No, we have a healthy attitude. We like it, it’s fun, it’s jolly, because it’s a primary impulse it can be dangerous and dark and difficult. It’s a bit like food in that respect only even more exciting. The only people who are obsessed with food are anorexics and the morbidly obese and that in erotic terms is the Catholic church in a nutshell." - Stephen Fry on Catholicism