If it's such a good bill, why is there so much bribry going on to get people to vote for it?

From MyWay by Charles Babington: "White House officials say Obama offers no overt promises or favors to House Democrats who agree to back the health care proposals. But suspicions of mutual back-scratching are almost inevitable in the wake of quiet Oval Office meetings, which White House officials have refused to divulge to the media."

"Freshman Rep. Suzanne Kosmas, D-Fla., repeatedly failed to obtain an audience with Obama to discuss her concerns about cuts at NASA, a crucial agency in her district. But she got invited to the Oval Office last week when Obama needed her vote on health care. She has declined numerous interview requests from reporters ever since.

On Thursday, Rep. Luis Gutierrez, D-Ill., said he agreed to vote for the health care package on the understanding that Obama and congressional Democrats would soon move a major immigration bill. About an hour later, Senate Democrats unveiled an immigration bill, and Obama issued a statement praising it.

"I'm committed to voting for this health care bill on that basis," Gutierrez told reporters as the Congressional Hispanic Caucus endorsed the health overhaul. "I want the president to be in lockstep with us (on immigration), which I believe he was during the campaign."

Don't forget the brother of the democrat congressman who suddenly was appointed to a federal judgeship. Also remember the water deal in central California. The farmers get water if the representatives vote yea on health care.

Hyperbole, hmmmm. Does a 1.9 trillion dollar deficit two years in a row sound like hyperbole? It sounds like impending disaster to me, but that's just me I'm not an adult like you.

And oh, yeah the trillion plus deficits are forecasted far into the future. And guess what under this huge financial burden interest rates are not expected to rise and the GDP during this time is expected to increase at twice the rate of inflation which is forecasted to stay at a measly 2%.

Yeah, hyperbole I can see why you hate it it ruins your fairy tales.

I've already made my opinion known, as have you.

Do something productive with your hyperbole instead of moaning about how the country is facing ruin.

:-)

That's it? We were having a discussion here on healthcare reform and why it is a terrible thing to pass. It will increase our debt and drive our country into ruin.

We are in this deplorable condition because of the socialist programs that have already been enacted and now we are doubling down on them. It is a sad day for our country and that's all you got...pitiful.

rollinstone "Sorry to hear that, too bad."

Only for you it seems

Come on, you can do it! Try and think to yourself "I'm and adult, I'm an adult". I promise you will get there one day!

Sorry to hear that, too bad.

rollinstone :

You seem to be under the impression that I'm not a citizen of this country.

Now stop the childishness and grow up

Well then how we want to do things over here should be none of your damn business - carry on ole chap.

rollinstone:

Couple of points:

1."And if it's so great over there why are you here?". The short (and equally as rude) answer is "None of your damn business"

The longer answer is that's always a clichéd statement/question to make when someone mentions another country might possibly be doing something better (in my opinion).

2. True, the UK is in dire straits but that was caused by the same mechanics that hit the US not a direct result of healthcare.

Carry on..

This is a serious question, so don't think I'm trying to be a smart###.
How are polls conducted? I've read that most of them are through the phone and 1 in 150,000 are the average called. One must have a phone and be home to take the call. That excludes a whole lot of people that want and need healthcare reform. So, my question is: How accurate are they in representing all Americans? What percentage of Americans are actually polled and what group of people are either included or excluded?

Born...The polls I've seen show the nation pretty much evenly divided with less tha 50% favoring the bill and a little less than 50% opposing it and the rest undecided. Show me an honest poll with a 70% approval rating on the health care package and I'll acknowlege that perhaps the country wants it. Right now, the country doesn't want it and BO and Pelosi have said in effect: "Shut up. We know what's best for you. After all, some 69 million people voted for change you can believe in."

thewaywardwind,

I have no idea where you get the HALF from without taking a accurate head count of ALL Americans, but doing it one step at a time is like putting a bandaide on a amputation.
I agree that the fraud should be front and foremost. But, insurance companies are responsible for hiring their own fraud detectives if they are so worried about hospital costs. Why do they just pay the claims and not know if it is accurate or not?
Medicare and Medicaid fraud absolutely should be taken more seriously. Itemized bills should be given to each patient everytime, not just when asked for. Maybe a printup of each days bills given to patient, and/or their families, every day, so they can keep up with that days charges. So many things could be caught if patients were just given the chance.

If you have a cold or a headache, socialize medicine works great. But if you need major surgery you will have to go to Canada, oh wait they don't have any doctors either.

If healthcare is so important why would they attach the student loan program to it? And finally name one government program that trys to control the distribution of goods or services that works efficiently or even very well.

And please "code" don't throw out Britian as an example of what to do. They are in worse financial shape than we are, if that is possible. And if it's so great over there why are you here?

I understand what you are saying Kenneth. I just don't feel that the Republican ideas would help those who need it the most. Buying across state lines does not help those who cannot afford it anyway. Not dealing with pre-existing conditions and you might as well not do anything.
I guess we'll just have to see how this plays out. I'm so praying that it does something positive for those drowning in no-man's land.

born2Bme..."I see this bill as a starting point. It is not perfect, but we have to start somewhere..."

Overthrowing the ENTIRE healthcare system of a country of three hundred million people and replacing it with something the fully HALF the population doesn't want is not the place to start.

Start with something that helps people who have no insurance or who have a catastrophic illness or injury and lack the coverage to get the care they need. Start with going after people who perpetrate fraud on the system to the tune of millions of dollars. If this system is only the starting point, where will it go from here? Starting slowly and small then building on successes and changing what doesn't work is far better than a nuclear option of obamacare. Giving the IRS any authority within health care is outrageous. Federal bureaucrats love their power and will always look for ways to increase it. Everyone in Washington from BO on down is salivating at the prospect of CONTROLLING the lives of more of the citizens.

If this was such a good plan, far more than half the population would be in favor of it and the congress wouldn't have to stoop to underhanded, behind the door votes that deem the real package to have been passed without a direct vote. If it's such a good package, VOTE ON THE PACKAGE. Pelosi has done one thing in this debate...she's managed to make "deem" another dirty four-letter word.

Kenneth,

Do you think that we will get ANY reform if this does not pass?
I don't think that Republicans want any change, or they would have tried to do something when they were in power, or this time, they would have worked with the Democrats.
I know how you stand with both parties, so don't think that I assume that it has to be either-or.
I see this bill as a starting point. It is not perfect, but we have to start somewhere, and too many people cannot wait for "some day".
This bill may cost a lot but, in my opinion, it will be less expensive then doing nothing.

Kenneth,

Isn't the government responsible for COBRA and doesn't it go to reason that there wouldn't be a COBRA without government intervention?
Am I wrong about this?

Kenneth, you are correct, the constitution mentions nothing about investing itself with the authority to make you buy insurance, but then again it doesn't prohibit the government doing such a thing either.

The point is, my personal opinion is, I would rather trust a bumbling, bureaucratic government who at the worst gets voted out after 4 years than profit driven, megalomaniac corporations who have absolutely no restrictions placed upon them or any requirement to heed what the public requires of them.

Windy: Sure there are cases like that, like I said the system isn't perfect but what system is?

Here's what you don't read about in the media about the US system:

"The JOURNAL of the AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION (JAMA) Vol 284, No 4, July 26th 2000 article written by Dr Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH, of the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health, shows that medical errors may be the third leading cause of death in the United States.

The report apparently shows there are 2,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery; 7000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals; 20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals; 80,000 deaths/year from infections in hospitals; 106,000 deaths/year from non-error, adverse effects of medications - these total up to 225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes which ranks these deaths as the # 3 killer."

Now you tell me which system is worse?

http://www.west.net/~cure/medical_err...

codearchitect..."I've lived under a Government with nationalized health care (UK)..."

Ahhh, yes, the UK health care system. Isn't that the one I read about last week where a guy who was in the hospital and had been ignored for so long he called the POLICE to come to the hospital to get him some water? Why, yes, it IS the same. By the way, that guy died from dehydration -- IN THE FREAKIN' HOSPITAL! Yeah, boy. I can't wait.

I'll tell you the thing that bothers me the most about this obamanation of a health care bill. The IRS is going to be checking up on whether or not individuals have health care that conforms to governmental standards and if they don't have care that measures up, the IRS is the bunch that will punish you.

From THE HILL by Vicki Needham: "Subcommittee on Oversight ranking member Charles Boustany (R-La.) said the IRS provision in the bill "dangerously expands, in an ominous way the tentacles of the IRS and it's reach into every American family," he said today during a press conference."

"Boustany said the bill would allow the IRS to confiscate refunds if there are penalties for not buying health care."

"Assuming it becomes law, the Congressional Budget Office expects the IRS will need roughly $10 billion over the next 10 years and nearly 17,000 new employees to meet its new responsibilities under health reform."

Seventeen THOUSAND additional infernal revenooers! Think of the damage that many new bureaucrats can do. And who runs the IRS? Why the most famous tax chea...uhhh, that is tax misunderstander himself, Tim Geithner. Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy doesn't it?

It's a fundamental difference of opinion though isn't it? Some folk don't trust the Government to run anything and some folk don't trust corporations to do the same. This bill is unnerving to some because it really is quite a radical shake up and change tends to upset and scare some of those with conservative mindsets.

I'm sure there has to be a balance somewhere. I've lived under a Government with nationalized health care (UK) and while it isn't anywhere near perfect (what system is) it costs less to run than what the US pays in terms of GDP, it is run by the Government which at the end of the day is controlled by the voter and most would rather have it than not.

I'm not saying this bill will be perfect but I don't think anyone will bother changing the system at all if this doesn't pass. Republican leaders certainly didn't put it high on their priority list prior to this did they?

Several doctors I know have said flat out they will quit. Secondly the healthcare bill will greatly increase demand while at the same time the government is going to "cram down" reimbursements to providers.

They have to do this because costs will escalate faster then they are now. This "cram down" is why so many doctors are not treating Medicaid patients.

Yeah, the law of supply and demand, it's a b!tch.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/14/news/...

Quoting here: "Right-wing media have seized on a dubious, three-month old email "survey" that purports to show that physicians are concerned about health care reform and that 46 percent of the primary care doctors surveyed "indicated that they would leave medicine - or try to leave medicine - as a result of health reform." Many media figures have falsely attributed this survey to the New England Journal of Medicine. For example, on Fox & Friends, co-host Brian Kilmeade said: "The New England Journal of Medicine has published a report and did a survey, and they said the impact of reform on primary care physicians, 46 percent, they say, feel reform will force them out or make them want to leave medicine.

This is false."

http://mediamatters.org/blog/20100317...

In addition the bill does not contain the so-called doctor fix. This is a 300 billion or so fix that has to be voted on each year to reimburse doctors for automatic cuts in medicare payments to doctors. Without this doctors would refuse to see medicare patients.

The other big assumption is that the GNP will continue to grow and inflation will stay around 2%. for the next 10 to 20 years. It also assumes that interest on the debt will stay low during this time period. The paper the CBO estimates are printed on have just one possible use.

And finally if the bill passes it is almost certain that private insurance premiums will go up or the insurance companies will go out of business. So in a short period of time we will have a single payer universal healthcare system. The CBO report does not account for this swelling of the mediaid participants.

It has been estimated that from 30 to 50% of the doctors will quit. Everyone will have insurance, there just won't be any doctors. Only a socialist would think this is a good system. It's not to difficult to see how this is going to end.

Note...
The bill was submitted by Pelousi to the CBO after they said it was over budget. She put in billions of dollars of cuts to Medicare and resubmitted. Whala...under budget.
After that they took the cuts that she took from those that need it, senior citizens who paid into the system, and put it back into the bill on ANOTHER spending part for "middle income" citizens making it in actuality OVER budget again. But it does not show up in the CBO report.

Also in this healthcare reform bill is....Student Loan change to take over the student loan system.
What does student loan's have to do with health care MS. National Socialist Pelousi?

I'll call them like it is,,,,lying, cheating thugs. Progressives....no morals, no uprightness of conduct.

Key words...

extrapolated, estimates, uncertainties, anticipates, probably continue, relative,
assuming....

Yup that is real definitive.

"If we extrapolate the projected output of the canine, we can assume and can estimate and anticipate, the effect on the lawn. Uncertainties could probably continue assuming the relative food intake of the canine."

From the Preliminary Report:

"CBO has not extrapolated estimates further into the future because the uncertainties
surrounding them are magnified even more. However, in view of the projected net
savings during the decade following the 10-year budget window, CBO anticipates that
the reconciliation proposal would probably continue to reduce budget deficits relative to
those under current law in subsequent decades, assuming that all of its provisions would
continue to be fully implemented."

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/113xx/doc1...

They assume the electorate are too stupid to figure out that the ten-year estimate of just under one trillion dollars is counting ten years of taxes but only six years of coverage. If you want a real eye-opener, look at the estimates of revenues and expenses for the second ten years. Bankruptcy looms.