• Dohbama
    Sameo, sameo seems like you are itching for an adversarial exchange which I have already said (many times) I will not participate in..You know the kind: It‘s where ad hominem attacks substitute for facts or a civil discussion.
    You have a great day.

    February 6, 2009 at 2:57 p.m.

  • Well Mike, are you professing to know my limitation better than I.  How much do you really know of my limitations? For a member of an ideology that espouses tolerance you sure do jump to conclusions when someone does not agree with you. Maybe you just have ole Blarney on such a pedestal you are blinded to the truth.
    I didn't exactly repeat Roy Mark, I did point out that you validated his point and that is a fact you can't argue with. I wasn't trying to impress you, I was making a point.
    Perhaps you should be more careful because every time someone calls you on one of your answers it turns out to be a short answer we shouldn't really pay attention to or simply your thoughts out loud, typed on a blog.

    February 6, 2009 at 1:56 p.m.

  • dobama
    Come to the real world..If you could actually go toe-to toe on the merits of economic policies with Barney Frank ,you would not have to resort to name calling or you would not be posting on the forum. You would be representing a district and explaining your position on CSPAN and other media outlets.Barney or any other representative has experience factor behind them..Know your limitations…
    Don’t take these short replies so literally because I never explained why I consider them idiots…I am an admirer of several conservative economist and columnist and several posters. I will name them if you would like..The sources I listed were just the ones I thought of at the moment..I read National Review on Line,Red State ,Towntalk,Drudge etc but I did not want to pretend I could be swayed by them or give off some false impression.
    Please don’t repeat to me what Roy Mark says..I am not interested, I despise someone that uses multiple aliases to agree with his point of view and was booted off the on line forum twice…I simply ignore him. Quoting him does not impress me.
    I never said for you not to read my blog but I was pointing out that if I only use talking points and don’t have a thought of my own, why do you bother?I was just thinking out loud

    February 6, 2009 at 12:31 p.m.

  • Rollingstone
    I have never called you an idiot;in fact quite the contary...I can remember complimenting you and several others that disagreed with me..I have been a poster for over four years so take that into consideration instead of my last few posts.
    I believe I have told you more than once,"You might be right" or valid points Rollingstone.....I simply think Williams and Sowell are out of their league when it comes to economics because all they know is supply side (cut taxes) and they only enforce what people of that mindset want to hear...Their analogies are idiotic and childlike...IMO
    I don't know what it is going to take but for the umpteen time I have admitted I don't know what is going to revive this economy 'so how is that calling another poster an idiot for disagreeing  with me...How can a poster disagree with some one (me) that admits he is learning the good/bad  & exaggerations of this stimulus bill.

    February 6, 2009 at 11:21 a.m.

  • I was just pointing out you and Reich are on the same page, while I tend to agree with economists like Thomas Sowell.  But I remember you think he's an idiot, because he disagrees with you and by implication anyone else who disagrees is also an idiot.  Thanks for clearing that up for me.

    February 6, 2009 at 10:59 a.m.

  • I would love to have a face-to-face debate with Blarny Flank, but he would not run circles around me because I would not, under any circumstances, allow him to get behind me. :-) I think you are too smart to compare the intelligence of Blarny Flank to Williams or Sowell. If you are comparing your view of Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell to my view of Blarny Flank then again you have a skewed point of view. You have admitted that the reason you called Williams and Sowell idiots is because they are conservative, low tax, small government (highly respected-my words) economist. My view of Blarny Flank is derived from his inept ability to, in most cases, form a coherent sentence. I don't think all liberals are idiots but Blarny Flank is not just a liberal or democrat. he's an out and out Marxist socialist and it's no secret I'm a strong opponent of Marxism and socialism.
    I think we disagree with the definition of talking points. This is my definition, it is not from Webster or Wiki but my own brain, so for what it's worth, maybe half cup of Starbucks?, talking points=partisan spin to enforce your (either right or left) side with no regard for fact.
    By your own admission and description, you have just made Roy Mark's assertion, that to some a political party line is a religion, a valid point. You listed the sources of information from which you form an opinion, all liberal. Is it any wonder that you present what I call the democrat talking points? Then you again advise me not to read your blog. Well, I'm not one sided, I am a conservative though not Republican, meaning I vote for the person not the party. I have never voted a straight party ticket. I read you blog to get an opinion from the other side. I watch CNN and MSNBC to get the liberal slant on the news. I don't need Fox News or Rush Limbaugh to re-enforce my conservative views, but I do need sources, as I've mentioned, along with NBC, NY Times, Mike's blog, and other MSM to help me understand the mental affliction of liberalism. :-)
     What I don't understand is why you invite us in to tell you where you're wrong, then when that is done you advise not to read.
    I agree with you, Mike is certainly not an idiot. I don't want to argue with you because for once you wrote what could be described as an almost adult posting. It does show progress and I don't want to discourage your effort. Your assertion the Roy Mark is my BFF is an indication of your immaturity and limited research on the topic. I don’t know Roy and I don’t have online BFFs. I simply chimed in a couple of times to point out the inconsistencies of the vicad “policy.

    February 6, 2009 at 10:17 a.m.

  • Rollinstone
    What are you implying?
    1) I cannot generate a thought on my own?
    2) I am plagiarizing?
    3) Because Robert Reich and I are Democrats we are supposed to think differently.
    4) Or is that just a way of saying I am a product of group think and only your ideology is correct?

    February 6, 2009 at 9:24 a.m.

  • dobama
    Using your analogy Barney Frank would run circles around you..I gave my honest assessment but to elaborate on Sowell and Williams..I call them tickle your ears economist..They just reinforce what you want to hear….I imagine you think liberal Nobel Prize winning NYT journalist and professor of economists is an idiot….Sowell and Williams will never be asked their opinion on serious economic problems because they are a one trick pony “tax cuts.”
    A “talking point” is a [persuasive point helping to support an argument or discussion]; so when I say I really don’t know the answer to our economic woes “where am I using talking point?”..The other day you accused me of trying to sway support for the “Fairness Doctrine” when nothing could be further from the truth.
    As I said before I am just a poster (nothing great) with a thoughts of own that I summarize in a blog after two or three days of input from magazines,CSPAN,CNN,Morning Joe, Keith Olbermann,Rachel Maddow,CNBC,Politico,NYT,Washington Post(George Will) and tad bits from here and there..If it comes out sounding like Democratic talking points to you; then that’s your opinion but if I quote someone I give them credit; same for articles.
    Now if you are trying to say I don’t have the ability to develop a thought of my own; then why do you waste your time reading my blog..?My avatar is easy to identify..It seems like you are wasting good time…I don’t read blogs that I think are just a waste of space and bytes.
    Roy Mark seriously J that is a low bar…lol A man that was booted off the forum twice ,once for having multiple identities to agree with his point of view and another time for being disruptive,rude,and being a troll…Troll is what the editor Joe Patrick called him.
    Thanks for the kind words it lifted my spirits

    February 6, 2009 at 9:07 a.m.

  • Mike, I read Robert Reich's blogs and he pretty much sounds like your blogs or your blogs sound like his, whatever. But I have a problem with his theories because every "variable" he wants to tweak in the economy he acts like they exist in a vacuum. The biggest example of this is the Keynesian Multiplier.

    Keynes' theory has been widely debunked. In fact every downturn in the US economy has been directly related to some shrinkage of the money supply. This includes the change from silver and gold coinage to just gold coinage in 1873. It caused a severe recession and gave rise to William Jennings Bryant famous "Cross of Gold" speech.

    Reich also makes claims about wages and how government and unions can set wage rates, as if these wage rates exist in a vacuum. He assumes that the labor and commodity markets will not respond accordingly to these changes and try to restore these markets to equilibrium. An economy is like a big amoeba you punch it in one place it bulges out in another.

    And finally the Federal Government is huge but the economy is about five times bigger - this is like the tail trying to wag the dog. The stimulus package does nothing to solve the under lying problem with the banks. And the recession/depression will not go away until they do. The stimulus will momentarily puff up the economy but when it falls back it will bounce like a dead cat.

    February 5, 2009 at 10:09 p.m.

  • Well, I'll only say that small time ill-informed bloggers that actually put in writing that they think Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell are idiots, are themselves idiots. I like you Mike and enjoy our debates but that was a really dumb thing to write. Those two would run rings around you, probably because they don't get their entire take on things from democrat talking points memos.

    February 5, 2009 at 9:19 p.m.

  • Good analogy,that's what it amounts to be :) .....I don't think anyone has the correct answer or we would be doing it.
    The trillion dollar is for shock value and it adds the interest (which BTW the GOP is now doing) funny it was not the case for the Iraq war funding...:)
    The latest
    Feb 5 (Reuters) - The U.S. Senate and House of Representatives must resolve differences in their respective economic stimulus bills so they can pass a final version to send to President Barack Obama to sign into law.

    Lawmakers say the final measure may include the following:

    * The price tag may be trimmed to about $820 billion, which Obama has indicated he would be comfortable with, senators say. The House-passed package of tax cuts and new spending would cost $819 billion, while the one headed toward Senate approval on Thursday would cost more than $920 billion.

    * Cuts in spending would likely focus on non-construction projects that critics say would have little, if any, impact on stimulating the economy or creating jobs.

    * A bigger proportion of the package could be devoted to tax cuts. Currently, less than a third would go to tax relief. Obama initially proposed 40 percent.

    * Increased effort to stem record home mortgage foreclosures, which have been largely to blame for the economic downturn. Senate Republicans have offered a number of measures to provide relief, including one to reduce mortgage rates.

    * The House will likely go along with a Senate proposal to soften a "Buy American" requirement in spending projects, like ones to rebuild roads and bridges. Fearing a trade war, the Senate agreed to require provisions be applied in a manner consistent with U.S. obligations in international agreements.

    * Expect little Republican support for the final bill in the House or Senate. No Republican voted for the initial House bill and scant Republican support was expected for the Senate one.

    So if Congress passes a stimulus bill, Obama will have scored a major legislative victory but fallen short of his goal of increased cooperation between Democrats and Republicans in Congress. (Writing by Thomas Ferraro; Additional reporting by Susan Cornwell and Jeremy Pelofsky; Editing by Peter Cooney)

    February 5, 2009 at 4:37 p.m.

  • So let's lay that trillion dollar chip on the table and roll the dice - Yahoooooo!

    February 5, 2009 at 4:23 p.m.

  • Sorry Rollinstone but Sowell and Walter Williams are complete idiots in my book..I have read their articles it reaps of extreme right wing conservative idealogy....As the president said yesterday "We are not going to fix this problem with what caused it it in the first place" I am paraphrasing...Tax cuts will do absolutely nothing to jump start this economy and trickle down has failed  so we are not going back to that.
    History lessons are irrelevant because we are in a world financial crisis....
    You have your beliefs and you may be right but I will admit I don't know but I am optimistic it is going to work..I may be completely wrong.

    February 5, 2009 at 3:58 p.m.

  • These are comments from Thomas Sowell.  He is a very respected economist, an African American who pulled himself up by his own boot straps.  We should listen to him.
    Using long, drawn-out processes to put money into circulation to meet an emergency is like mailing a letter to the fire department to tell them that your house is on fire.
    If you cut taxes tomorrow, people would have more money in their next paycheck, and it would probably be spent by the time they got that paycheck, through increased credit card purchases beforehand.

    If all this sound and fury in Washington was about getting an economic crisis behind us, tax cuts could do that a lot faster.

    None of this is rocket science. And Washington politicians are not all crazy, even if sometimes it looks that way. Often, what they say makes no sense because what they claim to be doing is not what they are actually doing.

    One important clue may be a recent statement by President Obama's chief of staff, Rahm Emmanuel, that "A crisis is a terrible thing to waste."

    This is the kind of cynical revelation that sometimes slips out, despite all the political pieties and spin. Crises have long been seen as great opportunities to expand the federal government's power while the people are too scared to object and before any opposition can get organized.

    That is why there is such haste to do things that will take effect slowly.
    What are the Beltway politicians buying with all the hundreds of billions of dollars they are spending? They are buying what politicians are most interested in-- power.

    This administration and Congress are now in a position to do what Franklin D. Roosevelt did during the Great Depression of the 1930s-- use a crisis of the times to create new institutions that will last for generations.

    To this day, we are still subsidizing millionaires in agriculture because farmers were having a tough time in the 1930s. We have the Federal National Mortgage Association ("Fannie Mae") taking reckless chances in the housing market that have blown up in our faces today, because FDR decided to create a new federal housing agency in 1938.
    Who knows what bright ideas this administration will turn into permanent institutions for our children and grandchildren to try to cope with?

    February 5, 2009 at 3:35 p.m.

  • This is the reason I am optimistic.

    By Shailagh Murray, William Branigin and Paul Kane
    Washington Post Staff Writers
    Thursday, February 5, 2009; 12:48 PM

    A large group of Senate moderates huddled in a Capitol Hill conference room today in an effort to cut tens of billions of dollars from an economic stimulus bill that now tops $900 billion, as wrangling continued over a package that President Obama called vital to prevent the nation from falling into potentially irreversible decline
    Some don't understand that the senate side is where the adults go to legisislate...The house side is where the children squabble.
    Since we only have 100 senators (as opposed to 435 in the house) that chamber is more congenial and compromise is possible without giving up principle...The female senators often meet for a bipartisan lunch....Ted Kennedy and Orin hatch are best friends...Another reason former majority leader Tom Dascle resigned from nomination,his fellow senators would have nominated him but the sink would have hampered his job effectiveness.
    If you jump start a car ,you are not fixing the root cause..You are just getting the car started so you can fix the problem...Stimulas = jump start

    February 5, 2009 at 1:04 p.m.

  • Hello Alton
    The only thing public polls do is drive consumer confidence down because it does not seem like the country has a direction with the same old partisan squabbles. I saw that the senate is offering legislation that will cut out nonsense and create real jobs and stimulus.
    Ownership of this bill for political gain/loss should not factor in this bill..IMO
    President Bush is irrelevant at this point but if it does work people (like always) will say the part of the bill they voted for created the stimulus .  No one has an answer and inaction is another way of saying that.
    I am very optimistic the moderate senators like Collins, Stowe, Webb, the two Nelsons and few others will put in real stimulus before sending it to conference.
    I guess we differ on the definition of stimulus...I say this bill is to jump start the economy and you say it will fix the economy...Stimulas cannot be long term so it cannot fix the economy...Yes,we will still have layoffs because of too much inventory...People without jobs do not pay taxes,buy goods,or borrow money from banks.
    Jack Welch (conservative former CEO of GE) said we need to fill 3 buckets in order to provide stimulas..Bucket #1 (Jobs) bucket #2 (fix housing) #3 (provide a safety net for those suffering from the layoffs...Everything else can be debated at a later date...He said that this morning on MSNBCs' "Good Morning Joe."

    February 5, 2009 at 12:19 p.m.

  • I contend the panic over rapidly passing this bill, is that it is losing the support of the citizens rather rapidly.  Each day the polls indicate fewer and fewer people support his current bill.  I just looked up the polls on this current Stimulus Bill, it has only 37 % support of the citizens. Let's face it no matter who created or will create the finial bill that it passed, Nancy or Harry, it is going to be President Obams's bill the minute it signs it..  He will own it..  It reminds me of the President Clinton stimulus bill and the affect it had upon this administration.  And with this much money being borrowed and taken out of the market, interest rates will rise and inflation will occur. The minute this bill passes everyone that lose their jobs over this next year will be bitter, because the bill promises that it will fix the economy.  The public will not accept accuses or blaming former President Bush this time.

    February 5, 2009 at 11:55 a.m.

  • Hello dobama
    Perhaps you missed the part where I backtracked and said “that is so 2008” because I meant it to jog memories not a tit for tat.
    Change and hope
    Two words are not the property of the Obama administration nor is the first time they have been used in a political campaign…I guess I didn’t make myself clear; I am not interested in becoming argumentative over trivia matters; that’s for the younger posters, I am getting too old for that; sorry…Those two words will be parroted over and over; always in a derogatory manner and never in a positive..That’s the same old politics of 2008.
    I don’t know what you mean about something bad happened in the first 15 days…The bill is only in the senate so far ,it still needs to make it back to committee and a another vote..No harm no foul.
    The poor smokers have always been the victim of the “sin tax” by the state, local, and at the federal level since I was a little boy…They don’t have a strong lobby or influence with either party.
    WASHINGTON —The Senate on Wednesday voted to expand the economic stimulus package with a tax credit for homebuyers of up to $15,000, a provision championed by Republicans as addressing a root cause of the recession.
    Thats the hope.
    Have a good night

    February 4, 2009 at 8:45 p.m.

  • Mike,
    Are you saying that because Bush used fear mongering it's OK for Obama and Pelosi (half a billion jobs per month we don't pass the spendulus bill? 500 million?) to use fear mongering?
    What happened to CHANGE? I don't expect an answer since you didn't answer williet's question about HOPE.
    I know, I know- it's only been 15 days. That is exactly what is alarming. The amount of damage that has been done in only 15 days.
    Today we got SCHIP, which is supposed to be paid for by an increase in tobacco tax. We'll need something like 60 million new smokers for that to happen. I thought we were trying to get people to quit smoking.

    February 4, 2009 at 7:08 p.m.

  • Williet
    This is only day 15,save yourself for the next 47 months..You are going to wear yourself out....LOL The fear monger-in-chief ..How quickly we forget...on Iraq Bush said something about a mushroom cloud ........on Iran "President Bush warned that allowing Iran to pursue “technology that could lead to nuclear weapons threatens to put a region already known for instability and violence under the shadow of a nuclear holocaust.”  and on the bailout of the banks...Nevermind ,I think you get the picture.And now you start complianing. :)...Then again that is so 2008.
    Now on the issue of hurry up (fear mongering) and get this done.
    I gather you read the newspapers every morning like I do…We see companies like Panasonic laying off some 15,000 and more coming..Inaction does not seem to be the answer.
    Now if you are saying take a little more time and get this bill right; then I am inclined to agree with you but we do need to get consumer confidence up...All this bickering is just keeping it down..IMO

    February 4, 2009 at 4:28 p.m.

  • What happened to "Hope"? Now the fearmonger-in-chief can only spead panic and fear. Didn't he promise to do the exact opposite during the campaign?

    February 4, 2009 at 4:17 p.m.