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exrsident I agree with most of your statement but this is not a republican or a democrat problem.
Much of this inherited problem has already been decided by the Supreme Court.
It might come down to 30 detainees being held without charges indefinitely. The evidence gathered against these detainees is inadmissible but releasing them to their country of origin is probably not in our best interest. I’m sure the Obama Administration will use the next several months looking for a possible solution.
Mike: You are right about me not apologizing. I personally don't think much of Colin Powell or John McCain. Vietnam Vet I don't know, but my reasoning holds...anyone who thinks we are going to keep this country and our soldiers safe by fighting the good, clean, white hat fight is sadly mistaken. Not against these martyrs-in-the-making. I could name several different examples of true torture, that generally end in death but you would still want to compare an apple to an orange. I personally don't care in the least that a few enemy combatants were subjected to some discomfort if it helped save the life of even one of our guys. You can bet the enemy wasn't hesitating to subject us to much, much worse when they got the chance.
Mike, have a great weekend and please be safe...
So VictoreI used to give you a lot more credit, so now it is come down to marginalizing and a standup comic routine.
I would just put you on my " ignore list." After the election I promised I would not engage in ad Hominem attacks.
You have a good Memorial Day weekend, God bless and thank you for your service to this wonderful country.
That was great!!! I knew it was something like that...
Mike is a secret agent for the KGB... Can't you tell.. He can tell you "what god knows"..If you disagree he'll tell you (ohh no thats wrong, you dont have your facts straight cause I didnt say it . and we all know IIIII know it all.....LOL
I have this idea that you set in this dark room with 15 computers around you just cutting and pasting away.
As far as center goes you will never go beyond that zero center line not even a plumbob to the right.
I just don't know government agents calling you "here's the facts Mike". So is there a bat cave that hang out in or a secret room, or maybe you are a secret agent..
LongI agree 100%...... The Obama Administration is at fault for that 90-6 Gitmo closing funding defeat,because they did not give the legislators full detail as to what we were gonna do with the detainees. Full transparency is a must.
I try and keep up on a daily basis but both sides tend to muddy the the waters but National Security should not be a partisan or a wedge issue.
VctoreYou said you did not want a beef with me and then you come back with all the things they do not make sense.Look in my avatar, I do not try to conceal my stance.You act like everything has to be right of center to have any legitimacy....I am the author of the blog and you have every right to submit yours with your bias opinion..... I am not twisting your arm or seeking out your opinion.I don't understand your beef.
LongdistanceshotThat is precisely what the Obama Administration is struggling with.The military tribunals will take care of acts of terrorism overseas and the Federal courts will try those accused of 9/11..... That is how I understand it right now but the details still have to be sorted out.
you are a liftwinger, after reading most of your post.. Why is it you have not given one honest answer to a comment made? You throw a lot of information out there that sounds ok, but it is always to the left of center or you will agree without a statement as to why. That sounds a little Nancy Pelosi..
Manuel Noriega was convicted in the Federal District court of south Florida.
I see your your point, because he was held as a prisoner of war and arrested on drug trafficking charges...... He was never really the president of Panama. Just to the CEO wearing a military uniform.
You have to over look a lot of facts when you deal with Mike..
I don’t know what Manual Noriega has to do with anything but he worked for our CIA for 30 years before the DEA indicted him on Federal drug charges. He sits in prison today awaiting extradition to France or Panama.
LongWe did get after Noriega, his punishment was we took all of his wife's shoes away from her.... lol
Vet To some, don't worry about the labels, if they are Muslims are Arabs, close enough..... Did you hear the former VP, he was a angry because the Obama Administration is not using his slogan" war on terror"... lol
Well, I couldn't tell if they were detainees, enemy combatants or POW's.
Mike, those terrorists at GITMO??? THEY aren't qualified to vote, either. Of course, democrats might let'em if they promised to vote democrat. Not all illegal voters are from south of the border. :)
Are you sure, Vet…? They could be 200 illegal immigrants getting ready to vote in the next Texas election before they pass that “election purity act.”….
Yeah, I guess I do sort of mock water-boarding. These are people to whom wearing a vest made of C-4 and nails means nothing. Blowing up themselves in crowded theaters and restaurants so as to maximize the carnage means nothing. Kidnapping totally innocent people and sawing of their heads on video tape means nothing to them. Sending their children out to commit mass murder and suicide by explosives means nothing to them. These are people to whom life itself means nothing. To make them somewhat uncomfortable is nothing to me. Heck, the first time one was water-boarded was probably the first bath he'd had in a year or more.
I don't believe water-boarding is REAL torture anyway. REAL torture would be something like stripping them naked, covering them with honey and staking them down over a Victoria County fire ant bed. REAL torture would be something like hanging them by their heels over a fire while their brains roasted and the heads exploded from the increased pressure from the heat of the fire. Water-boarding is just uncomfortable by comparison. They know that the Americans are too civilized to actually drown them. They know they'll survive and go back to their cells and eat food that is prepared in accordance with their so-called religion. We wouldn't want to make them uncomfortable.
Thanks for the link,Vet
I just love the way the uninformed tried to justify torture. This is more about a rouge vice president and how he defied the law by using “anything goes” methods.
Ari Shapiro(NPR correspondent) is reporting that in early May of 2002, the CIA got permission to use enhance interrogation methods from White House console Alberto Gonzales. If true, that makes the legal memos justifying water boarding null and void because permission had already been granted. The president’s personal lawyer was authorized? Mr. Shapiro said he has recently received CIA logs to collaborate his findings.
Hey, I think I just saw some of the 200 detainees Bush released at WalMart.
WaywardYou have an odd way of presenting a serious question. You call me a great liberal and the conscience of the nation. That’s a nonstarter. I am just a run of the mill ;average poster.
I know that the intention of the Bush administration was to have another facility ,where we could house detainees, without interference from the constitution and laws of the United States. We have similar facilities in Iraq and Afghanistan. You continue to mock water boarding, but if I were to be placed under that type of torture if for 45 seconds, it would kill me . It is depriving one of oxygen.
I have stated my position many times; trying to marginalize my position is a nonstarter.
For the last time , I am for military tribunals when needed, and then our criminal justice system, but I am unsure of what to do with those individuals we have tortured because the evidence we have against them has a taint and inadmissible. Having said that, a number of the detainees are innocent, or at least worthy of a trial. I am not a child, nor am I illiterate, I’m well aware of their culture, and in many cases the circumstances behind their detention. I’m also aware that our criminal justice system(like all others) has flaws, nevertheless it’s fully capable as proven by other cases, of doing the job, exaggerations and hypothetical’s aside.
I do not see any value of holding them at Gitmo forever.
Okay, Mike, settle down. It was mostly tongue in cheek.
I do have a serious question for you. No jokes intended here. You are the great liberal, the conscience of the nation and have denounced the Bush administration for its policies. But those policies are in the past. There are some REALLY bad guys in the jug in Cuba. In all seriousness, what would you have us do with them now? Regardless of how they arrived in the cages, regardless of how they were treated, regardless of whether running water into their noses is torture under whatever documents that may have been signed in decades past, the fact is they are in GITMO now. What do YOU think should be done with them? You said in a post here, "I believe in the constitution, our criminal justice system..." Under the Constitution and the criminal justice system, what do you think should be done with them?
I also wonder how the criminal justice system is to be brought into this question. Criminals do their thing, usually for money, but terrorists usually do their thing for some political reason that makes sense to them -- perhaps not to anyone else, but it makes sense to them. Criminals steal cars, rob stores, rape and sometimes kill people for money, revenge or just because they're mean and aren't wired up right. Terrorists plan their acts for the most political effect. They want to change governments or want to take over the world. I'm not sure a cop and district attorney are the answer to terrorists so, in as sincere a manner as I know how, I'm asking you what do you think the United States should do with these people that we have in custody?
WaywardI do not want to spend my afternoon on the literal meaning of the eighth amendment brought in by the bill rights.. Cruel and unusual punishment..... Consider yourself a winner because I will not argue with constitutional fundamentalist. Jonathan Turley(constitutional law professor) has used this position, which is widely accepted by those in government and I'd take him at his word..... I really don't wanna waste my time arguing this point.
Mike..."they have served in a combat zone and they do call water boarding ;torture. It is listed in the Geneva Convention document we signed, along with the Army Field Manual, and the United States Constitution as torture."
I haven't read the Geneva Conventiion or the Army Field Manual so I don't know about water-boarding as it relates to those documents. However, I HAVE read the United States Constitution many times and have never read about it there. Please give me the Article and section that calls water-boarding torture.
I want get into that beef with you, I truly enjoy being retired.. I really enjoy my golf, flying and fisfing, I will leave it at that. Have a safe weekend..
VictoreUnless you have documented evidence of what you just posted about President Clinton and the Atty. general; then it's all hearsay based on a ideological viewpoint.
JDFirst of all I believe you owe Colin Powell, John McCain and Vietnam Vet an apology because they have served in a combat zone and they do call water boarding ;torture. It is listed in the Geneva Convention document we signed, along with the Army Field Manual, and the United States Constitution as torture. Now if you think that we need to lower our morals and standards to be more like our 9th century enemies, then you should be looking for likeminded legislators to change our laws.
You won’t apologize because it easier to demean those that disagree with you.
with all due respect here, those guys went jail, the problem with the Clinton Adm, they didn't want any other investigations conducted on these nut cases, AG was a nut case, I'm telling you they did not want to start any fires. AG said it was a random act which was BS. I'm just not ready to write a book these issues,"yet"..
With all your expertise, why didn’t you know that the President Bill Clinton’s justice department prosecuted those that bombed the New York Federal buildings? Were you posting a half-truth?;-)
I have never pretended to be an expert on Guantanamo Bay. I am perfectly capable of reading and comprehending the reports of the International Red Cross, JAG, Supreme Court, Federal judges, our officers and enlisted personnel who have served there, CIA, FBI, and the department of defense. This information is not privy to two or three people.
Sickness can go both ways… Believe it or not.
Now I have already posted that the current administration does not have rock solid answers and their is legitimate concerns about the recent Supreme Court decision authorizing holding detainees indefinitely; without charges..... Go back and read Alton's response and my answer.
swbones: You hit the nail on the head with your statement - "You guys simply do not understand what the world is dealing with when it comes to these people". The idea that any information could be obtained from these military combatants by threatening them with a mere prison sentence is laughable at best. These are people that want Americans (liberal and conservative) dead and are willing and eager to sacrifice themselves to accomplish that end. Waterboarding is unpleasant, no doubt...but torture...no! Holding a man on his knees, blindfolded yelling at him that you are going to cut his head off on camera, and then doing it, warrants whatever we must do, to try and prevent such things from ever happening again. Most of the people who are decrying our "torture" have never served in the military in a combat zone and have no idea of what America's current enemies are capable of. This is not the good old days of WWII, and come to think of it they weren't too good either.
Mike, So what do we do with them, bring them to U.S. so that they have the same constitutional rights as you and I or do we leave them in Gitmo and be tried in military courts???????? I don't want them here...
Vietnam vetIt’s too bad that the democrats and liberals are not that cold and calculating, as to lay the entire blame on 9/11 on the Bush administration; just because it happen on their watch. I am sure if the tables were turned the GOP conservatives would be in power today because they would use it as a daily talking point. So far to local right wing conservatives are following that logic by wrapping themselves up in the American flag and implying they have all the answers and if you disagree, you simply forgot about 9/11 and you really don’t care about protecting America.
They simply forget (or do not know )that republicans like George W Bush, Colin Powell, John McCain, and secretary of defense Robert Gates have all called for the closing of Guantanamo Bay. But then again, one cannot have a serious discussion with someone that uses labels to elevate their perceived superiority; over their opponent.Then there is that abortion thing.
First off I'm a USAF Vietnam Vet who proudly served my country, with 26 mission over N. Vietnam.. I'm also a retired Federal agent of 30 yrs. I know that case in NY very well, prior to my retirement in 2006 I made 3 trips to Gitmo, I was in NY for 4 months after 911 doing follow up leads on these nut cases. All I'm saying to you, you do not know all the facts about Gitmo, and how these investigation work it is very complex. These nut cases in Gitmo, they have it made they have the finest of every thing a heck of lot better than the local state or fed/pens, the food is not bad at all.. I'm just sick of hearing this liberial point view. Obama told his voters he would close Gitmo, so he kinda put the cart before the horse, bad mistake.
WaywardwindI have been saying this all along… Every countries, every war, we all know torture has been applied but they buried the evidence….. We have a former vice president going out on a daily basis basically saying, we violated the Geneva Convention and the constitution; so what…President Obama does not want a truth commission or a special prosecutor but the daily; in- your- face and torture is good, is forcing the hands of Congress, who are bound by the Geneva convention to investigate torture.
swbones “You guys simply do not understand what the well as dealing with when it comes to these people”. That sentence tells me you have all answers, debate over.
You know, over 500 of the Guantanamo Bay detainees have been released back to that country’s by the Bush administration, it is estimated that 14% of these individuals have continued their jihadist ways.
As for your examples, we have convicted and housed over 30 terrorist and none have escaped. A small community in Montana has volunteered to accept 100 detainees in their of brand new abandoned maximum security prison. Several politicians lived within 3 miles of Federal courthouse that convicted that housed the 20th hijacker. Fear mongering will not work.
Man, can you imagine what shape we would be in if Bush would've paid attention to the PDB concerning attacks on the U.S.? There would be no need for Gitmo. Although anthrax somehow crosses my mind.
Mike..."In the not too distant future Federal judges might look at this and demand we release the despicable terrorists, to their country of origin (who will not want them) and we certainly do not want them released in the United States."
This sounds to me like a good reason to not take prisoners. If they don't survive the combat, they won't be a problem in the future.
VictoreRamzi Yousef, Mahmud Abouhalima, Mohammad Shlameh, Ahmad Ajaj, and the financier Kaled Shaikh Mohammeded were convicted of the February 26, 1993 bombing on March 2004...Perhaps you should research that..The FBI just foiled a plot a couple of days ago without using water boarding.
Saying that liberals do not want to protect this country is an insult, (especially during this Memorial Day weekend) to all those liberals that have died for this country. All this because someone does not share your view of protection.
AltonThank you for your informative post because you saw through the smoke screen and those that to want to keep Guantanamo Bay open should emphasize the permanent detention clause that the Supreme Court recently authorized, might be overturned because of its questionable as reasoning as to whether our constitution allows anyone in our custody to be held indefinitely; without charges. As you well know a tortured detainee cannot be tried in a military tribunal or our criminal justice system because we cannot use the evidence we obtained through torture.
In the not too distant future Federal judges might look at this and demand we release the despicable terrorists, to their country of origin (who will not want them) and we certainly do not want them released in the United States. That is a reason; the Bush and Obama Administration had trouble closing down Guantanamo Bay. The current administration does not have a workable solution at this time, so that is the reason the senators voted 90-6 to strip funding on the Guantanamo Bay closing.
What would you do about a bunch of nuts flying around in airplanes crashing into buildings KILLING THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS?? I say that to President Obama, what would he have done??? From comments you have made and he has made you two would have most likely sat back and done not one thing, just like wild Bill Clinton did in 93.. liberial givers and couldn't care less about protecting this country...
I suppose most of the "it's torture" crowd has never been through survival training, dive training, RIP, E&E courses or any number of US military special training programs. If you were, or are, a REMF you most likely did not go through any of them. Water boarding, is not torture, it is a term, turned into political weapon.
On a real issue, how many gang leaders still run their operations out of US maximum security prisons? Think for a change.The proof is already there, these folks go back to being terrorist as soon as they are released. All of you who support closing the prison at GITMO, were do you want to put them? How about you folks volunteer to set on those juries. Put your families lives on the line when you pass down a guilty conviction. You guys simply do not understand what the world is dealing with when it comes to these people.
I didn’t know hyperbole was a liberal progressive (double adjective or double noun?) talking point straight off a fax machine. I used it because it was a shorter word than exaggeration.
Why do I need a a tape of 9/11 ? That will only eight years ago. I guess I have to excuse all the ad hoc methods of the previous administration. I have never said that we had to coddle the detainees; so what you’re saying is that I am weak on terror because I believe in the constitution, our criminal justice system, and have a view different from your?. That is a common misconception. Might as well wrap yourself around the American flag and say “Go away boy, because this calls for anything goes.”If you were my husband or child, then we would have a story worth printing.
Then you finish with your Tasin like sentence “But what do you expect from people who have no problem murdering an innocent human for no real reason, especially the partial birth way.”…Huh?
Sometimes there is more to the story than looking at its surface.
GITMO is more than a prison area that detained non-combatants are housed. It is a strategic logistics base for the Navy’s Atlantic Fleet and used to support counter drug operations in the Caribbean. It is a self-contained base making its own fresh water and electrical power. It consists of two airfields and a dredged bay 32-45 feet deep, along with numerous docks. The Naval Base includes, as separate commands, a Naval Hospital and Branch Dental Clinic, detachments of the Personnel Support Activity, Naval Atlantic Meteorologic and Oceanographic Command, Naval Media Center, Naval Communications Station, Department of Defense Dependent Schools and a Navy Brig. Directly supporting the base as departments of Naval Station are Naval Criminal Investigative Service, Resident Officer in Charge of Construction, Human Resources Office, Family Support and Service Center, Red Cross, Security and Navy Exchange/Commissary; along with personnel housing.
It our oldest overseas base; it was first established during the Spanish-American War. During the 1990’s it provided humanitarian assistance to thousands of Haitian and Cuban migrants (over 45,000).
Closing this base will be abandoning our claim to the base and turning it over to the Cuban government, eliminate our ability to monitor drug operations in the area and eliminate a major military presence in the Gulf of Mexico and Atlantic.
Now about the prisoner housed there. Just because they are moved to a supermax prision here, why do you are anyone believe they will not be released due to trials or a judge's order?
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Hmm...new word straight off the liberal progressive fax talking points key words.
Wonder why the Nobama had to schedule an all of a sudden speech, mostly about his traveling man "John" dad, right up against a speech by Cheney that had been scheduled for weeks?Cheney, another slam dunk on the Nobama. Release ALL the papers, not hand picked a few.
I just want all the liberal progressive no water boarding type, who say it is torure and we do it to our own troops, to gather up the family. All the wives, husbands, kids, grandkids. Play a tape describing KSM and how he and his Islamo facists buddies murdered all those innocent civilians, cut heads off of reporters, etc. How he wants to kill more. Then play the whole tape of 911, showing the planes crashing into the towers, people jumping out of the windows, the arms, fingers, towers falling, heads that have been cut off over seas of US civilians. Then split screen the two and tell all those loved ones that you will let them get their heads cut off, jump out of buildings, fly the plane they are in into civilian buildings before you put water on KSM and his buddies nose. Even if that one drop will stop the harm that will happen to the loved ones. Not even slam them up against a cardboard wall. Ah yes, you need to shake their hands and cook them a steak until they talk.
I have to tell ya, I am glad I am not your husband or child. Always thought you were suppose to be like a protector or something. Oh,...that was the "old days". You have to be progressive.
But what do you expect from people who have no problem murdering an innocent human for no real reason, especially the partial birth way.
Mike you and Vietnam Vet are so full of BS you do not have a clue..
I went Gitmo in 06 just before I retired from the fed's. The food is fine. It is nothing like Honio Hilton.
Sorry but system won't allow corrections..I meant Don.
BTW Didn't John McCain compared the torture at the Hanoi Hilton to some abuses at Gitmo?Perhaps not in direct comparison but the abuses at Gitmo is about to become public,so we will have more info.
DanJust recently I replied "No, just some more hyperbole" ..That includes my comments.
I know V-vet is your buddy, but do you really thank that comparing the Hanoi Hilton to Gitmo is NOT hyperbole? C'mon,for Pete's sake!
Wrong ?No, just some more hyperbole..Welcome aboard.
Hanoi Hilton, cup of rice and rat meat per day and also daily beatings.
Gitmo, culturally prepaired Islamic meals and a little water in the nose.
Apples and Oranges, but of course I am wrong!
You know we have not been attacked since I bough my 2007 Prius...Oh,forget about London and Spain,they are just our allies.
The blogs are already out counting up all the Cheney lies,half-truths and spin...He backed up the CIA today, but back then he was vilifying them for not being able to link Saddam with al Qaeda....Hard to prove a negative without lying.
Gitmo has become the 21st century Hanoi Hilton. Mr. Five Deferment Cheney in my opinion said absolutely nothing. Mentioning 9/11 twenty five times, which is all he and Boosh propped their administration on. Fear mongering will continue with Darth because he thinks that the American public will fall for it and run around scared every day and fall to their knees and thank the Boosh admin. and him for "keeping us safe."What happened on 9/10?