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jbj,thank you for your well thought out post, I always look forward to your comments when it's not about the same left/right garbage we hear and see in the media.... I would be willing to bet that we are both getting ready to go to church, looking forward to Sunday dinner, and a relaxing afternoon.... Ideology is a mindset; it doesn't have to be a cause for complete divisions... We share a planet as human beings.
I don't usually post on the weekends but I have some time this morning... When I write about republicans, democrats, tea party and politics; it's usually about the 535 members of Congress. Those 535 members cast votes that have an impact on our foreign and domestic policies. As I've said many many times; you don't need to tell me if you are conservative, independent, libertarian, or liberal; post a few comments I will do the rest... And that's a vice- versa.......Communication and understanding can work amongst us but not so much when the power to cast a vote, goes to 535 people... Unfortunately, money speaks louder than words.
It looks like it's gonna be a great Sunday afternoon; enjoy, and I will continue looking forward to your thoughtful and civil comments.
Mike, I also wanted to comment on one more thing you said. That was if I am going to be in politics I need to not wear my feelings on my sleeve.
Well, Mike, we are all in politics, whether we like it or not. But insinuating the other side is wrong, uninformed, or just plain less smart is not going to solve a thing. I don't come to this site to get praised for my way of thinking, yet if I wore my feelings on my sleeve, I would not be here. I am interested in understanding the other perspective, and quite honestly, you are the only one I even know who gives some insight into that. Sometimes I ask questions because I want to know how you or those who share your opinions see the situation. I know there are some people out there who would like to hurt our country, but I don't believe it is the goal of most people. The majority want what is best for us, but have very different ways of getting it, and some have different views of what is best. We can fight, but neither of us is going to change the other. We are dealing with a country of different people, some informed, some less so, most are biased in some way, some are tuned in, some not, ... we are all different. Congress is made up of the same groups, and represented by those groups. The only way things are going to work out is to understand the goals, and set forth on a path for getting there. Push, pull, trickery, bribery, insulting, demonizing, and some of the other things we see today are not going to get us very far. Communication and understanding might get us a little closer.
Just a thought.
Just who are people like me, Mike? And who are "so called American people"?
You seem to understand the tea party less well than I understand the Democratics. And I will admit I don't understand Democrats at all. Most of the ones I used to know were moderates, now I can't even find one.
My reference to the tail of the dog is not original, it came from Schumer, whose actual quote was something like, "The tea partiers are not the tail wagging the dog, they are the fleas....", or something to that effect. Meaning they did not warrant the significance of a part of the dog, with the dog being the government.
I am not going to explain the tea party and why it seems to be dwindling. It would be off subject.
jbj, if you are going to be involved in politics; you can't afford to wear your feelings on your sleeve because you'll come away with hurt feelings everyday.Consider the source and move on,it's just side-show politics.
I'm not surprised that the budget wasn't passed because of all the filibusters but people like you think that the democratic party is like the Republican Party and you like to use it as a talking point.... Most people know the ideology of the blue dog democrats, the moderate democrats and the conservative democrats. The Republican Party is totally conservative, and it starts at right of center and extends beyond. They weren't waiting for GOP input but they're not a monolithic party, and I know it's very difficult for you to understand that.
You like to repeat the total Dem controlled government of 2008 as if the filibusters or parliamentary procedure didn't matter but those that know politics are aware of the circumstances. It's very familiar to where the GOP house is, where 88 freshman Tea Party members are calling the shots for John Boehner... The GOP knows the Koch brothers will finance a primary challenge to anyone who doesn't play ball.
I think the Tea Partiers are insignificant ideologues that majority of people are getting tired of..(Gallup,CNN * NBC/Wall Street Journal poll) . As said I don't care about talk radio terminology and if you are going to dish it out, you should be able to take it... I always consider the source...I know you are into back and fourth name calling because that's all your post is about.... I really don't care what you think of liberals because in the larger scheme of things; it doesn't matter...I embrace the difference...:-
The bottom line, I don't think Tea Party is significant, in fact, their membership is dwindling. About 200 showed up for the "Shut er down" rally the first time and about 50 more for the second rally.... I'm glad it's been found out that they're not a grassroots party, and that they are just another arm of the Republican Party.
BTW Don't be so pollyannaish it's all about the money and power until we have a campaign reform policy....Not even the so-called American people are calling for that.
Have a good one
I am surprised that a budget was not passed when congress controlled both houses. If that had been done there would never had been a need for the CR's nor the fight that was settled last night. Fine with me they waited for Republican input, just thought it might have saved some sweat and tears if they had had a budget.
What Schumer said was not necessarily nasty, just funny coming from someone who knows this government gets its power from the people. Tea Party has proven itself more significant than the fleas on a dog. Even if you disagree with them, and believe me, not everyone who supports their ideas agrees with everything they say, you have to admit they are significant.
I have disagreed with some liberal ideas, and have expressed my disagreement, but would never accuse liberals of being insignificant. They are part of the dog, just like the Tea Party and all Americans. I would not even assign them a less significant section of the anatomy, such as the tail... or anything else. ;)
As usual, we disagree on your opening statement... I am not a moderate nor do a pretend to be, and I never think (regardless of my bias) that there has to be an equal fault...There is always a time in a place when a majority of the fault can be placed on one party.i.e. i heard republican senators John Thune,Pat Tooney, and Tom Coburn say that the budget bill should be stripped of all riders because they had nothing to do with the budget..Some republicans like Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison showed leadership,because she got 60 co-sponsors to strip the policy riders from the budget deal.....The bill wasn't need but it gave John Boehner cover to take the deal, despite the Tea party protest...Shortly after the announcement of an agreement was made,a Tea Party organizer called for a primary challenger for Boehner...I'm glad the Tea Party has taken the far right course because the Independents that voted for Obama in 2008 don't care about the social issues;they want a compromise.
I stopped with the talk show politics a long time ago so I'm really not interested in political rhetoric because it has nothing to do with the budget... On the other hand, it was Michelle Bachmann's tweet they gave a wink and a nod to let John Boehner know it was OK to take a a deal to avoid a shutdown because the bigger fights were coming.... I wouldn't be all that sanctimonious about the words of Chuck Schumer because I'm sure you said worsen that about liberals... I know I've said ( and meant it) worse things than that about the current 88 or so freshman Tea Party members...Remember COMMENT history.
Last night was one of three battles. It is obvious that the republicans won round one because the initial proposal by the GOP was about $31 billion, and they got close to $39 billion. It was more like a handshake to keep the government open until Thursday but that's not exactly a done deal.... The rest was politics because the democrats agreed to allow Title X funding, regulation of greenhouse gas, and the repeal of Health Care as standalone bills to get an up or down vote,so the GOP can get the votes on the record for the upcoming election..i.e. It's going to be interesting to see how Senator Scott Brown votes.... That's all it's going to amount to, because the GOP can't override a presidential veto.....
The economy may have been the loser the last night because budget cuts lead to layoffs.. We're slowly coming out of an economic downturn, and time will tell if we can sustain any more job losses.
In the meantime, our economy is not totally dependent on a government budget; Wall Street continues to perk along, the Fortune 500 companies are not dipping into their reserves, and the oil companies continue to make larger and larger profits.
Well I do think if there is a pox on one, there is a pox on both.
I am glad they agreed to keep things going. I think Bachmann is wrong to jump in shouting NO, and I think Schumer has shown us something that may be a key to some of the problems we are seeing. We now know how important he thinks the voice of a segment of the people are, comparing the Tea Party to fleas on a dog. If the people are the fleas, Congress is the ticks. But if this is a government by and for the people, the American people are not the fleas, they are the dog. And Congress needs to realize that people do not agree, but each part which makes up the people is significant.
Who won? Who knows. Seems we are kicking the can down the road on some issues, delaying the inevitable. But we will be paying those whose salaries depend on the government up and running. We will not be shut down. So one step at a time.
It's a darn shame that 800,000 will have to go without a paycheck ,if the government shuts down over woman's reproductive health issues. The ideologues in the house of representatives are holding onto this issue but they continue to say it's about the amount of budget cuts... Yesterday, they tried to entice some conservative democrats by extending military pay,so they could play the same old game of " if you are against this; you are against the troops." .. It's a shame to use the troops in a political ploy.... Senator Kay Bailey Hutchinson has just received the 60th co-sponsor for a clean bill without policy riders;including defunding Planned Parenthood...It will pass the senate but will the ideologues pass it in a house to keep the government open for one more week?
A pox on both houses? Not if one body allows the government to shut because of social issues.
Lol....jbj,you know it's the NBC/WALL STREET JOURNAL poll but like your friends at Fox; you hope no one will notice...:-)..Btw I have posted some poll results from the Fox dynamic poll and in this blog I mentioned Chris Wallace at other times Britt Hume...Fox News Sunday is not Bill OReilly or Hannity.
A compromise is concessions by both sides ...Policy riders on a on a one- week extension is not a compromise.
On the the recalls ..The Dems already have enough signatures to recall one GOP senator and are close to three more...The republicans in WI are barley making an effort,they have money coming in from Koch Bros. but no grassroots effort.
Well we about kicked this dead horse enough;time to give it a decent burial and move on to another subject.
I'm calling it a day...Have a good night and thanks for keeping it civil....I'm not celebrating because it's inconsequential to me because the moral victory has already been achieved... He was supposed to win in a landslide but his ties to Walker and his stance on unions were his undoing but a recount was expected and it may end up in the courts....Remember to step back and get the big picture...picture....Think Indiana, Ohio, and Michigan .
oh and one more thing, she didn't beat him yet. Too early for her to celebrate.
oh and several democrats are up for recall in WI also. There are plenty of name callings coming from both sides.
Of course NBC would say that the tea party is losing steam, so does Harry Reid. I consider NBC about as valid as you think Fox is. Any negative comes from the Democrats who have a reason to demonize the tea party.
I think most everyone wants a compromise, but have different ideas of what would be considered compromise.
jbj,in case you don't believe me.
The Tea Party movement is losing steam in public esteem, according to a just-released NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll.
Just 29 percent of Americans have a positive view of the conservative movement, versus 44 percent who view it negatively — 30 percent with very negative views, according to the poll.
The poll showed division on the looming prospect of a federal government shutdown.
A total of 68 percent of Tea Party supporters said Republicans in Congress should stick to their position, advocating deep budget cuts, despite a possible shutdown: Overall, 56 percent of Republicans took that position.
By contrast, by a 66 percent-to-30 percent margin, Independent voters want a compromise. Democrats and Independents favor a deal that will keep the government open by a 71 percent-to-23 percent margin.
jbj,That was NBC/Wall Street Journal poll..Wall Street Journal leans right.
Come on,jbj, open the binoculars to wide,so you can see can see the whole picture.
1. The Judge she beat was supposed to win by a landslide.2. There is a recall effort in Wisconsin for several republicans. 3. The refusal to compromise on collective bargaining upset republicans,who picketed with the union workers. 4. Walkers old job was taken by a democrat after Walker endorsed the republican...Walker is down to 30% 2 months after being elected.5. Wisconsin was supposed to be the starting point to break the union; a complete reversal which may be overturned in the courts...The judge who lost last night called the female judge who will be the deciding vote a name he will regret.
It's funny that the definition of compromise for republicans is to come to their side of the issue.
The Tea Party has swung the Republican Party to the far right..i.e. This afternoon the house couldn't get a week continuing resolution passed because they insisted on the cuts to EPA,Planned Parenthood, and the same policy riders that keeps the six month budget from passing.... They are ideologues, who don't know how to govern.
Mike the contest in WI that did a "complete reversal" is not such a complete reversal. It is a squeak by, not a land slide. I would have expected those in favor of unions to come out.
There is a difference between demonizing and tweeking. That goes for more than one issue. And both sides have to give... there was not a lot of right influence on the writing of the health care law, so it is going to see some major criticism from there. If there had been any input, someone would be up there defending his or her part.
Also, 68% on a poll probably means more than just those who lean right, or we have more on the right than even I thought. However, it could have been a leaning right poll, as you suggested, just like the NBC one could be a left leaning.
That's pretty good response but let's not get into campaign political rhetoric unless we compare every president that ever was elected... " Change" any kind a change has been used forever. I mean why would you elect someone who's just like the one that's in office?
The president is not going to demonize the healthcare plan anymore than the republicans are gonna take back their" death panel " talking points. That's all I'm wanna say on that subject; read between the lines.
We're not even to the debt limit yet; that's next month sometime.... Politics does not stand still; the same people who voted overwhelmingly for republicans in Wisconsin have now done a complete reversal.. I think I've told you two or three times; Americans have the attention span of about 27 minutes. The 2010 election has long gone and some people are having buyer's remorse because the Tea Party doesn't seem to understand that you cannot cut and billions and billions without having a significant effect on a shaky economy.Drastic cuts mean job losses; job losses means less consuming and more dependence on government services. We didn't get into this mess in two years; it's going to take a 10 year plan of entitlement, defense, discretionary spending cuts and tax increases...The Tea party cannot justify allowing the farm subsidies and tax incentives for the oil companies while cutting education and programs for the poor. The Tea Party doesn't seem the realize that they only won one chamber,so things won't get done without a compromise.... That's why I say it's going to be two wasted years.... I believe if they were up to John Boehner, a deal would have already been made and the GOP could rightly go on a victory tour because the $33 billion is two billion more than their initial proposal.
jbj,I'm just guessing that the poll that had 68% wanted a shutdown of government instead of raising the debt limit leans right...That would have world wide complications. The Treasury Sec. just came out and said that.
About the budget that didn't get passed. I don't give a rodents rear if we don't have one, I just cannot understand why they did not have one and I am sure they knew if they didn't there would be some opposition that they would have not had before. It was all about politics then and it is all about politics now.
If CBO told Ryan his budget was not going to do what he expected, then he needs to go back to the drawing board.
Is there a middle ground? Well if our President would go to the people and say, "I think we need to rethink health care since so many waivers filed for by my supporters indicate to me that I don't have the support for it. Let's take another look." That would be a starter. Planned parenthood is another matter, I think they serve a worthy cause with care for women, if they want to keep it maybe just stop the abortion phase and continue getting government support. BTW, I am not changing the subject to health care, just commenting on the reference to it in your post.
The line drawn in the sand by Republicans was not put there by Congressmen and women. It was put there by voters, who now say on at least one poll that 68% would rather shut down the government than up the debt limit. Those are the same ones who are demanding the brakes be put on the spending for the current CR. At least that is the understanding of the congressmen and women who were voted in. The Tea Party is not a bunch of radicals, they are a group of people who believe spending is ruining our country and want it stopped. They are part of this group, but only part of the group.
There is an argument that those who now want fiscal reponsibility and an end to spending are the ones who have changed. That is funny, I remember the Democratic candidate for President who is in office now, promising a "fundamental change" and he is bringing that about as fast as he can. At the same time much of the country is saying, "This is not the change we thought you meant, so stop it." And they voted that way in 2010. And they are demanding that a line be drawn. If somehow our congressmen and women have misread that message, then voters will correct them in 2012.
jbj, Nancy Pelosi did pass a "budget resolution enforcement" because the democratic party is not a monolithic party. She did not have the 51 votes in the senate... As a pundit told a tea party member last night " no one was going around complaining about the lack of a budget last month) and besides everyone knows that th you're not going to balance the budget in the next six months with cuts in discretionary spending....The majority of the needed cuts will come with the 2012 budget....Again,I think and it will be put off until after the election because Congressman Ryan now has to go back to the drawing board make some adjustments because CBO said his proposal would add to the debt.
I think there is plenty of blame to go around but I was surprised at the results of yesterday's NBC/Wall Street Journal poll...37% would blame the GOP for a shutdown 20% the Dems 20% President Obama....68% of democrats think the party should compromise but only 38% of republicans thought they should compromise.....56% of republicans thought they should hold onto their principles..... It was said this morning that the numbers are not the holdup; it's the policy riders.
Senator John Thune said that they might avoid a shutdown with another week of continuing resolutions to continue the debate.... As I said before, the democrats and the president will not allow the defunding of Planned Parenthood or the repeal of Health Care. I don't see a middle ground there;do you?
JBJ,We don't have a budget now because the democrats who had majorities in both houses wouldn't pass a budget before the election. They're trying to hide the financial mess we're in. Now, they don't want to give up ANYTHING to get the budget deficit under control. $60 Billion dollars is a drop in the bucket when compared to the 17 Trillion that we are in debt for.
I will repeat, I am not sure what we are doing at this point in time without a budget.
Other than that, I have about the same thing to say as others who have posted here.
jbj, this blog as about the next three phases we're about to encompass.
Yes, I knew that CBO recalculated their original figure's but the final paragraph in the article you submitted gives a counter argument .... That's why I stated that I don't want to discuss Health Care because it's all about estimates for now, and the full bill won't be in full force until 2014.
Again, this blog it's about the continuing resolution that will have to be agreed on, or the government will shut down midnight Friday night.... Phase two will be another round of proposals for the 2012 budget which will start on September 30, 2011.... Phase three will be the raising of the debt limit...... These are the three topics of discussion.
The repeal of health care is next to impossible because the senate is controlled by the democrats and the republicans don't have enough members to override a presidential veto. It's off the table unless something drastic happens in 2012.... It the same thing if the topic is privatizing Social Security or Medicare.
Have a safe trip but don't add more because it's OFF TOPIC.
Again,have a pleasant trip and be safe.
I don't do well with this type of thing, but this is where I got the idea that this law may cost more than previously estimated. I have a trip to make today, will add more this evening.
jbj,I'm not shocked to know that everything you read about politics is either left and right; that's par for the course.... I believe that believing CBO results when it benefits your cause and doubting the results that goes against you is a bias...:-)
I don't want to discuss the Health Care Law because it hasn't been fully implemented; it's only natural that republicans don't like it and the polls show that. The democrats don't think it went far enough...But that's a topic for another day,maybe in the year 2014 when everything is in place.
The continuing resolution will have to pass because we can't shut down the government forever, so why shut it down at all?....John Boehner has just jumped the ante to $40 billion in cuts, before he will present it to the GOP house...So,is this about $7 billion?..Trouble is John Boeher would prefer to get 218 GOP house members because then he would be able to keep his riders..If he makes a deal with the blue dog democrats, to get the 218 votes, some of the riders will have to go and he will face a challenge for a house speaker in the next election. The ball is in Boehner's court ,Harry Reid can get the votes for his proposal.
I am still having a little trouble understanding why we are without a budget at this point in time.
Everything I read seems to be biased either left or right. Each side has their criticisms of the other and their own solutions. Both seem to want the other to do something and look bad. Right now it is about politics and not what is good for our country.
I do not think repealing Health Care will increase the deficit, and I do not believe this is the whole story on the report of the CBO. The CBO had only the estimates given to them to work with. Depending on what you read, how it is slanted, there are different takes on what the Health Care law will do to the deficit. And now that we are seeing what is in this law, we have former supporters seeking and getting waivers. States are expressing concern for the expenses it will add to their budgets. This law is going to cost much more than the estimates and will cost in quality of health care.