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What are you talking about? I am not talking about Walker's election last fall. I am saying the Governor should put the issue like this up in election as a ref. in the fall of 2011.
I was just pointing out that redustribution of wealth goes both ways.
Born, the most dramatic redistribution of wealth occurred under Clinton.
Things aren't looking good for Gov. Walker (not that it matters to him) because two GOP governors are doing the opposite in dealing with unions....Gov Daniels of Ind. is asking the state GOP to drop the "right to work bill" and Fla. Gov. Scott is giving the thumbs up for public organizing.
Could be a little jealousy brewing..:-)
Maybe they read the USAToday/Gallup poll where 61% oppose cutting collective bargaining.
We've had the most drastic redistribution of wealth there has ever been in this Country in the last 10 years. It's all gone to the top and they make darn sure it doesn't trickle back down to anyone in this Country.
If we need higher taxes why did Obama agree to extend the tax cuts? Does he believe they are bad for the economy? It has been said that high taxes don't really make the poor richer they prevent the poor from entering the middle class, they inhibit upward mobility - makes it harder to succeed, "trickle up" if you will.
Government spending in order to redistribute income keeps the poor dependent and stuck in poverty. However these people are very useful as a political support group, the same for public unions.
Obama is actively supporting public unions. Organize for America his political support organization is actively participating in the Wisconsin demonstrations. This is a dangerous precedent for this country when a state government loses control to a union because of efforts by a federal political hack.
And finally we are not in a recession, we are experiencing high unemployment - the result of economic uncertainty and over regulation of business.
State governments were not immune from the recession... We were all living in a bubble; the bubble burst and now a shared sacrifice is needed to continue our slow growth. The financial crisis was caused by Wall Street, home buyers, home Sellers, global capital flows, and predatory lenders,not labor unions......Pretty simple revenues plummeted; state budgets collapsed and now GOP controlled state governments want to blame the union. They are nothing more than opportunists.
I was looking at some charts that didn't show any sharp rise in collective bargaining in the years 2006 and 2007; there weren't any major reforms of labor laws.
Then, more and more people blame the high pay/unions for all of the troubles in America today, but without that higher pay, more people fall below the poverty line and join the people with their hands out.Having nowhere else to get more taxes to pay for public assistance, the ones who actually earn a livable wage are expected to pay more to support those without jobs. This angers the upper class and starts all the blame again, but they are the ones that caused it in the first place by not wanting to contribute more when more people could pay into it. YOu just cannot get something form those who have nothing to start with.
Shows you just how dumb people can be. The mid to lower class cannot buy more than basic survival products. They need help by the taxpayers for medical care and food.The middle class is the class that supports businesses by buying their products with the extra money they have after they pay for the have-to-haves.The upper class can only buy so much. I guess they cannot figure out that as the middle class shrinks, bankruptcies increase and more and more businesses close. As more jobs are lost, more people depend on public assistance, lose their healthcare, and it snowballs from there.
It's contagious The Indiana democrats have now fled the state to avoid another union busting effort by that state's GOP....This plan of union busting was probably bought up at the GOP governors meeting... I don't have any proof of that but I cannot believe all this is just a coincidence.
I know that state employees are already covered by civil service laws but I think collective bargaining between labor and management is a basic right...I believe there are only five non- collective bargaining states.
The outcry is coming from the right who believe in trickle down economics....They don't believe that a very strong middle class is essential to our survival and competitiveness
You are probably seeing it right. I'm just hearing public opinion about Unions over this and that is what popped into my mind. Most people don't even understand Unions, but they are jumping on the anti-union bandwagon and denouncing everything about them.
I think he's asking for more money from the teachers to pay for their retirement and health benefits to make them more in line with the private sector. The teacher's union have conceded. The governor doesn't want collective bargaining for anything other than wages.
As you well know, collective bargaining is a contract between the state and the public employees, that was made in good faith by both parties. Many states cannot pay good wages, so rather than let teachers go, they bargained for a deferred pension which does not have to come up before the legislators every year and require a smaller contribution into medical benefits. This has been acceptable for 70 years in Wisconsin.
Am I seeing it wrong?
This is the way I see it. If Gov. Walker doesn't want taxpayers money to be paying for pensions and health insurance for public workers, then no public money can pay for Mayor's, Governer's, Senator's, President's, etc., health insurance, penions/equivalents, retirement, or any other privileges that they demand for themselves. They earn enough money to pay for their own, right?
They cut taxes $67 million on businesses to try and create jobs. It's a paltry sum but it's better than raising taxes like they have been doing in California. Businesses and wealthy people are fleeing California in droves, they seem to be relocating to Utah, Montana, Wyoming, etc.
A tax on businesses is a tax on jobs, the more the tax the fewer the jobs. I think there may be two states that are not in a financial bind, both Democratic and Republican controlled. A day of reckoning is coming for two of the biggest states, New York and California.
You said you said you weren't watching the news,so I guess you a quick study or you are sandbagging...You are on top of the situation.
When Mika Brzezinski of MSNBC's "Morning Joe" asked governor Walker if the teachers unions are being singled out by stripping them of their collective bargaining rights. The firemen and policemen, who supported the governor by the way, get to keep their collective bargaining rights. He didn't deny it by saying that the teachers would be able to negotiate their wages. Then she asked why were the top 1% in Wisconsin given a tax cut, if every one is being asked to share the sacrifices . Governor went straight to his GOP talking points " I will not raise taxes on any one durning a recession."... No governor, you will not raise taxes on your cronies, but you will threaten to lay off 1,500 state employees... What will that do for the consumer base?
If governor Walker manages wins this fight over the public employee union; it will be a shortcut to being the republican nominee for president. Public and private unions have always been the nemesis of the Republican Party, this victory would do wonders for the republicans. The next battlegrounds will be in Tennessee, New Jersey, Ohio, and Michigan.
This is about union busting. Nothing else.
People are saying that there had already been major tax cuts in Wisconsin - on corporations. Is that true? If so, it's like saying lets put all the tax burden on the little guy.
And next year in Wisconsin all they have to send in is $700 - problem solved.
And that's just what California needs another tax increase. However, I keep reading that California's deficit is more like 25 to 30 billion dollars for this year, so they will need to raise taxes about 1.5 percent and another 1.5 percent to handle the deficits for all the local governments.
And then there is the total debt for all the governments in California approaching $500 billion - but whatever they should not try to cut spending, no don't even think about it!
RebeccaThanks a lot for the YouTube clip; every adult sends in $32.00; budget crisis over.
That's basically what Jamie Dimon,CEO of JP Morgan said about the California fiasco; the deficit is 1% of their GDP; raise taxes 1%; problem solved.
As the short clip emphasized, some want to cut services, lay off employees, get rid of programs but never think about raising taxes for a year or two, to ease the pain ,instead of just using austerity methods.
Wisconsin, or any other state, and our nation didn't get into this mess overnight and we're not going to get out of it overnight.
"Wisconsin unions are responsible for bringing the nation the forty hour workweek, workman's comp..."
Here is a solution to the problem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAfsIW...
Sorry to hog your blog, Mike!
Public employees pay taxes,they are not immune...We don't use the same scrutiny with private sector employees. In the case of Wisconsin, and th the teachers union have agreed to the monetary increases but the governor wants to restrict their collective bargaining. It's called union busting!
It is a different kind of protest because there's a lot of young people involved... It's more like a pep rally inside the capital, with people singing to the lyrics of " On Wisconsin.".. That police chief said after seven days of protesting; there's not been one arrest.
I heard that people from 38 states have sent in pizza orders for the protesters and about $300,000 has been raised for the senators that left the state.
Funny you should mention the tea party because they showed up Saturday in favor of the government, particularly Governor Walker..... What's even funnier is how Fox lined up with the tea party but is now against the teachers that are protesting... MSNBC ridiculed the tea party but they are supporting the protesters....
Like the Tea Party... But, I see that the Wisconsin protesters are the ones whose salary is paid by all the taxes that everyone wants to cut. Could this be viewed as a response to the Tea Party? I'm not watching the news, so I don't know what people are saying. I'm blissful. ;)
They feel they are defending democracy.
I'm watching Facebook for Wisconsin information. I know that sounds crazy, but one of my FB friends lives there and is active with her family in the protests. She has sent out some really good pictures! I really like the view from an individual. Like a "Story of Us" kind of feel. That may be where I heard pizzas were being delivered to the protesters paid for by people on the other side of the country. One day, she said they were making breakfast for the protesters. In the evening, bagpipes are played.
Apparently you're not keeping up with the events in Wisconsin.... Just this morning on MSNBC, the governor was asked about the negotiations and he flat said" no negotiations" and this evening he will announce a threat of 1500 layoffs if all his demands are not met by Friday... You said " Gov. Walker did not invent the desire to limit the power of the union, " but collective bargaining for public employees started 70 years without a governor trying to take " collective bargaining" away from some public employees and leaving the firefighters and and policemen collective bargaining powers intact because they worked to get him elected.... You need to read some Wisconsin Newspapers who endorsed the governor and they are now saying he should negotiate. There's also a story about his work at the county level where he immediately fired all the public security guards, even though he was told he could not do that. As a true republican, he replace them with private security until the public employees he fired won their case at the cost of the taxpayer.
I don't see all this increase in the strength of the unions because they only represent 12% of the private sector and 36% of the public sector... The Obama conspiracy is laughable. As early as last year the unions in Arkansas supported Blanche Lincoln's opponent... President Obama and Bill Clinton supported Blanche Lincoln....... What is not transparent is GOP election funding.
Two thirds of the corporations in Wisconsin pay no state taxes. If you give enough tax breaks to bidness you can have a budget crisis that can only be resolved by eliminating public employees collective bargaining.
Pretty cut and dry.
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Mike, unions have either become more powerful or the Obama admistration has been more transparent, exposing their strongarming. They may well have been before this administration because WI saw this as a problem earlier. Gov. Walker did not invent the desire to limit the power of the union.
Personally, I think that unions have been good and necessary in the past. They are overstepping now. Maybe they have been for a long time. I didn't see it as a problem before.
I don't agree with Unionizing public jobs......that seems redundant to me, for lack of a better descriptive. It also seems like a waste of tax dollars.
lol..Rebecca,that is so true.
There is dissension among the ranks because The senate majority leader said there will no vote taking to eliminate collective bargaining while the democrats are out of town.... There is a way they could vote with a simple majority but from 4 to 6 GOP senators are starting to feel the pressure ....I heard some local shopkeepers were going to close shop in protest.
I've heard that people on the other side of the country have ordered pizza for the protesters in Wisconsin. The image of the Egyptian at a protest on the other side of the globe holding the sign in support of a protest going on in America, really is amazing.
The human story there amazes me.
Governor Walker said that he is trying to limit the power of the public unions to collective bargain about benefits because he knows as everyone else does that in six months, or a year they will be right back demanding even more benefits. He wants to make this a state law to help not only the state but counties and municipalities manage their budgets.
As it is now unions get lucrative settlements especially for benefits that run governments into the red. Lawmakers respond by raising taxes and then the cycle repeats itself again and again. The unions therefore control of government spending and budgets, not the lawmakers. That's not democratic and neither is the takeover of the Wisconsin state capital by bussed in rabble.
jbj said "I am also not against unions."
Your rhetoric NEVER matches your words because for three consecutive posts, you've only made anti-union statements.
For the record, a public employee pays taxes, consumes goods, and pays for services like all other taxpayers.... The issue is collective bargaining which was done in the open by legislation... The teacher's union in Wisconsin agreed to the increase in their health benefits and retirement contributions... Governor Walker did not run as a labor union buster. When the teachers union agreed to the monetary decisions, it is no longer a budget problem because the only issue out there is the right to use collective bargaining for other than wages.
jbjThe unions and the democratic party have had a relationship for longtime and it's got nothing to do with the Obama Administration. As I wrote in the blog the labor unions contribute to the democratic party and the Koch brothers and United States Chamber Commerce contribute to the Republican Party.
The labor union has conceded to all the monetary issues, now it's just about union busting.
Stick to the truth.
writein, that is what Walker did. He ran on the promise to curb the power of the union. He is just doing what he promised when he campaigned.
I think if there is one thing that has been transparent in the Obama admistration it is the huge power of the union. This was exposed, and is not to the liking of a segment of the population. Is it a majority? In some places it is and we will see an attempt in those areas to curb the power of the union.
If the governor was wise then he should have put the issue up for a vote from the people.
vbb, the unions work for their employees to bargain for more taxpayer money, and other things. I agree that public employees should be protected by the ones who hired them.
People get into unions because one voice is not as powerful as many. Unions have power because they back political candidates or a party that will support them and work with them. The Democratic party is the party that is supporting the unions and the other way around, and each has gained more power than many of the taxpayers want them to have and unions want more because in recent years, their numbers have fallen. Not allowing a secret ballot would insure that everyone knows who votes with or against them and would give them the power they need to increase their numbers. Many Democrats are supporting this.
Not only do unions try to maintain good salaries for their workers, but they also bargain for better benefits. They also tell the workers when they must strike. This can work against the worker. Walker is trying to limit some of the power of the unions.
It is not all Republican governors. Governor Andrew Cuomo of New York is also about to go forth and try to slay the public union dragon - he has too, it's fight or die.
The mechanics of recall elections in Wisconsin seems to be strait-forward and apparently the margin of victory for at least 3 Republican Senators is slight enough to make them vulnerable.
Overplaying your hand can have consequences.
"This is what democracy looks like!" is a curious chant.
This is going to be fun to watch.
I don't understand why public employees need a union....if they are working for a government institution they should be protected wouldn't you think?
If this governors approach is successful and brings the state's budget back in control it could be used as a blue print to help bring our national debt back into control. President Obama would just have to cut and paste "federal employees" in place of state employees and forward the bill to congress. Surely the republican majority would vote for it.The same logic would call for a bill that would allow major US companies to adjust employee personal pensions in a manner that would allow companies extra capital needed to reinvest and create more jobs. This would ensure that all US workers would be on a level playing field with state and federal workers thus no need for any one group to feel singled out.As true Americans, we all should have to live with the same tough decisions.
Mike, I am not trying to change this topic to teacher pay, just correcting something I said in my first post.
I am also not against unions, but when they bargain taxpayer money, the state is going to have a voice in it. We cannot tax people to provide benefits when the tax payer cannot pay for these things for himself.
As long as overhead does not allow our factories to be competitive with imported goods, we will have imports outselling home built. To tax imports to the point that they are the same price would just raise cost of living to everyone. So what is the answer?
"Repeating his call for frugality and moderation in government, mentioned in his inaugural speech, Walker said the state faces a $3 billion deficit in the new biennial budget that must be written this year. For the rest of this fiscal year the state faces a $237 million budget shortfall."
Funding Emergency Statute ... http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/2005-0...
"That provision is contained in the fiscal emergency statute dealing with the procedures that are required to be followed in the event of a general fund revenue shortfall following the enactment of a biennial budget. If the Governor determines that a fiscal emergency exists as defined under that statute [s. 16.50(7)], the Governor must submit a bill containing recommendations for dealing with the revenue shortfall."
"A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable." - FDR (1935)
I don't disagree with you justataxpayer on principle because while I'm willing to let them make their profits overseas; I'm all for removing their tax incentives and corporate loopholes.
The problem is that we like cheap junk from Wal-Mart and cost is only reason we stay on oil and coal. The problem lies within and loyalty and freedom has nothing to do with it. i.e. The companies within the Fortune 500 have about a $2 trillion surplus 'cause of cheap credit and outsourcing and I will buy it another Toyota Prius over an American car. I'm not disloyal just because I'm looking for the best deal for me.
I can't blame the corporations if I'm doing the same thing.
I do see your valid point but I have a different take.
"If Wisconsin is having budget problems, then why did Scott Walker spend $140 million on special interests?"
"In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million.
To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January. If the Legislature were simply to rescind Walker’s new spending schemes -- or delay their implementation until they are offset by fresh revenues -- the “crisis” would not exist.
The Fiscal Bureau memo -- which readers can access at http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2...
--" makes it clear that Walker did not inherit a budget that required a repair bill."
Great post and yes, like FDR's New Deal and Lyndon Johnson's Great Society overreach led to the Reagan revolution. I think we're witnessing GOP overreach with the social issues and eliminating their nemesis, which might light a fire under the dormant democrats.
You're absolutely right about the pendulum swing.
I can't agree on the taxing and outsourcing.... It's a CEO's job to answer to the shareholders;lowering taxes for the manufacturing jobs we lost wouldn't even begin to solve the problem because we can't compete with super low wages. I believe lowering the corporate rate and eliminate the tax loopholes will bring in more revenues because the corporations will actually pay taxes.... I think both parties are working to restructure our trade deals and working on more trade agreements in South America.
But who know;that's what civil discussions are all about.
BTW If I remember correctly when the top percent was 70%,strong unions led to a strong middle class...Some economist will tell you if tax rates are high the Corps will invest more in employees rather than pay taxes where they do not get anything in return....I'm sure there are counter arguments.
Thanks and have a good weekend.
No denying that at least the republican showed up to vote....Coward is subjective.
I'm in no way comparing the brave men at the Alamo to the Wisconsin senate democrats but they're using the same delaying tactics.... They're sacrificing time away from their families, being arrested if caught in Wisconsin, or being reelected, if enough people disapprove of what they're doing. They're taking a stand to prevent republicans from taking away collective bargaining rights from public employees. Yes, they would be allowed to bargain for wages but if wages are frozen, that's a shallow victory. .. The republican controlled state legislators would like to be able to assign teachers but collective bargaining prevents them from doing that but it's not really about the money on either side.
A little history I learned from Rachel Maddow last night.
Wisconsin is the first state to give us unemployment compensation, workman's compensation, and strong unions that gave us the 40 HR workweek etc.... Wisconsin is a strong union state, which has seven cities named Union.... If the Republican Party wins in Madison, Wisconsin they will take this victory and apply the same methods to Ohio and Michigan. Labor unions in the private sector only represent about 12% of the workers , in the public sector it's at 36%.... The GOP would like nothing better to bring the public sector union participation to 7% or lower in a state by state campaign.
The budget of Wisconsin is very misleading because I've read three accounts and had to go back and reread just to try to get a grasp of what is happening. Some are talking about the fiscal budget that will end in 2011, others are talking about a combined 2011-2012 budget and they throw in some words like " emergency funds for unexpected events."
This is a very simple issue.... Public unions or not.
Good morning Rebecca
I have more respect for the readers of this blog ,so I took the extra trouble of looking up teacher salaries across the United States.
In Wisconsin, teachers make the starting salary of $25,222 the average $46,390 and in the last 10 years their pay has increased 21.5%.... That's 28th in the nationBy comparison,Texas teachers starting pay average $ $33,775, the average $41,744 and in the last 10 years their pay has increased 32%.... That's 7th in the nation.
I got this from teachersportal.com
jbj is a republican, so naturally he is siding with the republicans in Wisconsin, who want to cripple public unions.. He is trying to turn the discussion around to teacher pay but this issue is about the right to continue collective bargaining.The union Rep has already conceded to the increases the governor wants but this issue is about the right to assign teachers which if you go to the meaning of collective bargaining I provided inside the blog....This just politics
Well, the times are ripe for picketing. Look at Cairo and Bahrain ... and Belgium (though I still say protesting naked is more fun) but, I do hope the teachers keep their clothes on.
None of this is about the pay. It's about the attempt to break up collective bargaining, another term for Union busting.You cannot take away the "right" to bargain.
(it has live coverage on the bottom of the article - twitter feed)
Interesting article: http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/w...
There are two things I want to say after my first post on this topic. First, I have heard conflicting info on the salaries of the teachers in WI. Two sources have reported their salaries at higher levels than most teachers, $89,000 a year and over $100,000 a year. However, most of the info I am able to find on teacher salaries in various states have WI salaries more in line with most of the nation. Possibly those with unions backing them do make more, and that info is not given on the state comparison charts. But average teacher salaries in WI is in line with others, being about the 21st from the top among the 50 states, just over $46,000. So I am not sure what is correct.
The other point is that Mike stated that WI does not have a budget problem. Sources I read say that he does, and is addressing it as he promised when he ran for office.
The call for card check has brought people to the realization that unions are attempting to overstep a line that allows them more power than they have had, and some are opposed to this idea. This has caused many to look at unions and their power and has shown unions in a different light. If a majority sees this as a problem, it may reflect on the Democratic party, who is backing the unions.
You have to write a thesis to get a Master's? Like I could hold a thought in my head for that long. I can barely write a sentence without tortillas or biscuits with breakfast?
What are teachers making now? I'm curious. Sometimes I wonder if I should get a Master's before I try to get a teaching job.
Mike,At least the Republicans met and voted "no." These cowardly Democrats won't even allow the state's business to take place. The state constitution should be amended such that quorums are required, but the absence of a quorum for three consecutive meetings would constitute a quorum. Running away from the issue solves nothing.
Also, it's my understanding that the unions would be allowed to bargain for wages, but NOT for benefits.
I wish you were here months ago.
Mike, if it is true that those teachers are making $89,000 or so, they are not underpaid. Texas teachers made about half that after 20 years, just a few years back, not sure what they are making now.
They are being asked to pay 12% on their health insurance and a little more on their retirement pension, and if their state goes broke they won't have a job at all.
If I had children in that state, I would call and ask that my children not be taught by a teacher who missed work to protest. If they do not understand economics that well, they should not be teaching.
At least the gov didnt LIE like our's did. He campained on balancing the Budget until the day after the election. He turned down federal help in many cases just to prove he is fiscally conservative.Perry is nothing but a land grabbing crook who sent out TABC, DPS and other state employees to extort money from businesses for his re election. His arrogance reminds me of John (breck boy) Edwards.
Remember, Wisconsin does not have a budget problem but grateful and looking out for one's best interest can be synonymous.
Well the firefighters and policemen supported governor Walker ,so a quid pro quo was in order.
I agree, a job with benefits is rare these days but I still believe public employee should be allowed to engage in collective bargaining... I think the teachers should pay more of their retirement plan and more for the health care but this legislation is barely a week old... Is that enough time to discuss alternatives
In the state of our economy, you would think they would be grateful just to have a job with benefits.
It should have been proposed "across the board" for ALL the public employees though.
Granted ,I should've stated that the schools were closed because of teacher absences and the way I worded it, made it seem that state of Wisconsin allowed the teachers to protest.
Anyway I disagreed with teachers decision to use their sick leave for a protest. Many in the private sector probably had to take off, to care for their children who were supposed to be in school..... Two wrongs don't make a right.
Let me add, I don't think the one day teacher protest has anything to do on how they value their students. That's merely a partisan observation because if the governor strips the teachers right to bargain; the teachers will probably leave the profession. I don't think teachers are in the teaching profession for the money but a sudden increase in the amount they have to pay into their retirement and Health Care might be a big blow to the family's finances. This is why both parties should meet at the bargaining table... We mustn't forget that Wisconsin doesn't have a budget problem right now. The governor could make a case of avoiding a budget problem in the future but strong arm tactics is not the way to go.... People can take alternative transportation but schoolchildren need qualified teachers, who are probably underpaid.
Wisconsin did not "...close down their schools today to allow teachers to protest...". Many Wisconsin schools were forced to close their doors because of the many teachers who called in "sick", in violation of the union contract they have with the state. At least this demonstrates to eveyone concerned whose welfare the teachers put first, theirs or their students. The Governor should give the "sick" teachers the same option Ronald Reagan gave the illegally striking Air Traffic Controllers and follow through accordingly.