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Why aren't you answering Vet43's question??? Be a man.
I was thinking the same thing. How much do your think the Koch's have poured into the Pea Party?
Sounds like some of the posters are paid for and funded buy The George Soros delusion camp. The Yes we can group that spends your money not theirs.
It seems you and I will never be friends, but enemies on this site. HOW CAN YOU SIT THERE ON YOUR HIGH HORSE and proclaim that anyone who isn't in your level deserves the life they have. A PERSON CAN get up every morning and go their sorry @$$ jobs. When ever that person get paid, THEY GET PAID JUST TO BE BROKE !!!
Do not play that Socialism card with me because I am not SOCIALIST and second, we LIVE IN NEO-FEUDALISM in Texas and in THIS CROSSROADS AREA !!!!!!!
I'll tell you and the world what needs to be DONE.
1) Use “Petro dollars” to curl and to pay down the National Debt. Uncap the oil reserves in Montana and the Dakotas. 2) Open trade with Cuba.3) De-globalize the economy by ending NAFTA, CAFTA, and remove membership from the WTO. 4) Audit, Amend, or end the Federal Reserve. 5) Amend the Tax code and adopt some tax idea from the Paul C Fisher Tax System. Amend the Tax code and adopt some tax idea from the Paul C Fisher Tax System A) 15-30% cut across the board for eight years. B) The Fisher Tax plan An Asset/Value Tax on goods and services ranging from 2% (Food ) to 25% (Luxury items). Those making over $300,000 would pay a Flat tax.6) Place tariffs on unfavorable nations.7) A bailout for every American on debt.8) For ten years, prohibit Unions and Corporations contributions in Federal election campaigns. 9) For ten years. Prohibit lobbying in Congress.10) A Constitutional Amendment for a Presidential Line Item Veto, and/or peacetime quadrennial Balance Budget.
HOW ABOUT WALK IN MY SHOES !!!!!!!!!!
Speaking of greedy, no I best stop before the Rolls Royce Gang gets upset.
Lol.....Now if congress would pass the debt ceiling...Well we can't get greedy.
I may have been off on a trip to utopia if I overstated my thoughts.
The Astros did win one and I heard the word rain today.
Philosophy and human behavior is not my fortay. I'm more of " let your conscience be your guide and" live and let live." That keeps me out of the judgment business.
My personal business is mine, and I don't put my business out on the street for critique. I'm just a lowly poster with nothing to brag about. Now and then I like to share something I have experienced.
I like statistics, math formulas, or generally accepted accounting and economic principals and how they relate to political science.
That's the reason we clash.
"Philosophical utopian crap". Your elegant use of the English language indicates the depth of your passion regarding others motives. Your ire is an exclamation point to the issue of those that do not respect the gift of wealth anymore than the luck that put them in the right place at the right time.
I, for one, understand the huge number of varibles that are part of each persons core values. Yes, folks with little assets have been know to lack good people skills. On the other hand, we have witnessed folks with great resources use them to inhance their power. Mr. Madoff comes to mind.
My statement was meant to convey a view that man can and should be more caring of his larger family. Maybe we need to teach ethics, intregrity, honesty and common decency to our children rather than how to get ahead at any cost.
Yes, the people in parts of Africa are very poor in relationship to me, or any avarage citizen, just as I would compare to Bill Gates.I use Mr. Gates as an example because he is "walking the walk" by giving back. Our family volunteers time, donates food, clothing and funds to those less fortunate. The R.O.I. is hard to calculate in dollars but it makes our pillow softer.
And we have paid every dime of taxes owed and still don't have a Learjet. Don't want one. Just don't think I should buy one for a CEO.
siubTrying to personalize a situation because you don't have an answer, is just a cop out.
I don't even attempt to compare what happens in Victoria to what happens across this nation because it's apples and oranges. Too many variables.
The graduated progressive tax system that we have, is made up of tax brackets, so you know well in advance what your tax situation will be. The wealthy have benefited from the tax cuts for 11 years. It's time to change that.
Look throughout the forum where I have been explaining the reason for income inequality for the past 5 years...Stagnant wages,reduced or no pensions,workers asked to pick up up more of their benefit package,2008 Wall Street financial crisis,homes losing their value etc,etc,etc.
Like as said I bet many of the poor would love to trade places with the wealthy, and they would gladly pay their share.
siubInstead of personal observations ,why don't to pull up some stats,as to why you think income inequality in the last 30 years is just a myth.
Data from the United States Department of Commerce and Internal Revenue Service indicate that income inequality has been increasing since the 1970s.
Vet43See what I was talking about? Another slanted hypothetical to prove a point. Spin works both ways....
The good thing about hypotheticals is that you can slant any way you want.
Tax redistribution of the wealth works both ways...The 2001 & 2003 tax cuts were skewed to the wealthy.i.e. The Bush borrowed funds tax cuts for the wealthy of 2001 & 2003 were taken from the middle class and under ,to give to the wealthy.
Thank you. The idea of a level playing field that does happen thanks to nature and Father Time. Not sure how the "winners" will drag their goodies past St. Peter?
Even while walking amoung our fellow beings it does seem that passing a Kidney stone is the same for rich or poor. Accept the rich may be able to hire some one to scream for them but still........
How you live is not mesured in a bank statement.
Good post, a breath of fresh air.
The cheap labor conservatives want to take us back to "Social Darwinism" using a mythical god that they like to call the free market. They not only want cheap labor but they want them to pay income tax at the same percentage as the elites. These elites supposedly are the superior competitors because, if you're not successful, it’s only because of your inferiority. They preach competition but they fear it...i.e. The Rupert Murdoch's empire, Goldman Sachs, Exxon, etc. Any form of government becomes a destructive force to their means.
Thomas Jefferson said" the marketplace isn't a naturally-occurring phenomenon. It is a human invention, created by laws, customs, and institutions."
The politicians are not talking about the poor right now; that subject was volunteered as a reason for our financial situation. Unemployment is at 9.2% and much higher for minorities; where are the jobs for these people? That's what we should be talking about because then everything takes care of itself.
We used to have a poster that said the poor should be helped by neighbors, churches, and strangers rather than government handouts. When I pointed out these individuals were no longer giving, he said he carried food in his truck to give to the homeless. It was later found out that he was receiving government help because of a disability; he said he voluntarily cleaned up construction sites. When you point out the facts, people like that resort to unverifiable personal stories.
To some, the definition of “fair” is a straight across the board rate, as if everything is on the same level playing field.
It is disturbing that some folks are ok with not feeling the same amount of pain as others because they are more fortunate. Material wealth is not a sign of superior ability and commitment. It can not be accomplished without the shared labor and help of a persons social and family circle. The most respected successful people are looked up to because they understand it is necessary to return some of the harvest to the society that created the market that made them successful.
As long as people equate wealth with special treatment we will have huge gaps between have's and have nots. Much of that comfort zone came from the folks that idea of a comfort zone is being able to feed their family.
Compassion is free it is not cheap. It requires sacrifice on everyones part and because you can buy more or better "stuff" does not make a person more valuble to humanity or less susceptible to pain. We must remember that you earned that "stuff" in part from the labors of others and without "them" you would would not be able to insulate yourself from "them".
Stuff: Food, shelter, healthcare, security.
Them: Poor people
I don't really care who you are ;I'm just interpreting your posts.I really feel uncomfortable having this discussion.
You have a great day
"because your target is those that are less fortunate than you are"
You do not have a clue who I am.
Problem is we don't ,that's just a cop out to rid the social programs.I think a prosperous nation should have a safety net..it's the moral thing to do.I don't lose one minute of sleep worrying about the rich and vice versa.Want to talk about fraud ,I bet I could I could add up all done by the wealthy and you wouldn't blink because your target is those that are less fortunate than you are.
The idea of being equally fair is good - the idea that things should be equally painful doesn't agree with me. I don't complain about the taxes I pay and will follow the tax codes, but certainly will never support and idea that the US Government should take from the rich and give to the less rich. Our government needs to get back to providing the necessary things - defense, infrastructure, and some services - but we can't continue to be the answer to everyone's problems. We as US citizens need to step up and help each other - we can be more cost effective and efficient than Washington ever can.
That's your choice but I pegged you for an level headed reasonable person.Exaggerations are akin to lying...Then it becomes difficult to know when you are making a serious point (as you did ,yesterday) or it's just another vent.
Like I said,we are all in this together and we probably have a different route that we would like the country to take but that doesn't mean we have to become enemies.
Everyone else exaggerates - why not me!
That's a negative outlook.....The Bush tax cuts have been in place since 2003 and now you are complaining by exaggerating your point....you don't have to skirt the issue...you have a classic case of making everything about welfare and the poor but no complaint when Wall Street barons exploit the system.
No party is talking about raising taxes;don't take my word,read today's Advocate whereeverything is spelled out........
Btw I bet every poor person would trade places with you and gladly pay the taxes.
So the idea is for everyone to work for minimum wage - so that everyone feels equal "pain." If working harder, investing better, and seeking more opportunities gets me nothing - why bother. I should cut back on my business - lay off workers and decrease my income because I can make less and feel the pain or pay more income tax and feel the pain. I think I will just work less or maybe go on welfare.
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A flat tax is easier to explain...using Vets 25%...
A person makes $20,000 a year, his tax is $5000, leaving $15,000. Said person still has to pay rent or a mortgage, utilities, food, gas and everything else out of the $15,000 after tax.
B person makes $250,000 a year, his tax is $62,500, leaving $187,500. Said person still has the same bills after tax.
A person pays rent @ $500 a month, $6000 a year or 40% of after tax pay. B person pays a house note of $2000 a month, $28,000 a year or 14.9% of after tax income.
A person has $9000 left after tax and rent, B person has $159,500 left after tax and rent. And it goes on for everything else, utilities, food ect.. The lower income has to pay a much larger percent of income for basic needs. Get it?
Short answer. Yes. It is equal, not fair. For it to be "fair" the higher income should not insulate anyone from the "pain". Think of it this way. When I fill my gas tank I feel the pain of high cost because I must have it to survive. I don't think Mr. Koch fills his own vehicle and I bet he does not feel the pain. It is all relative to how much fat you have between your cost of living and your wallet.
I agree with much of what you say but I would be for flatter tax but not a "flat tax" 'cause it would be unfair to the working poor. If we had a flat tax, states would keep their tax and add a sales tax. The math does not work in the working poor's favor. All things are not equal and we are starting on a level playing field........... Texas is just one of the seven states that do not have an income tax.
I would even be for lowering corporate tax rate but eliminating those tax loopholes you talked about. That would bring in more revenues.
I think a flat tax will work for you and me but the struggling working middle class needs credits for child tax credit and education credit etc.
Mike...The progressive tax system -- the more you make, the more you pay -- is a nice idea as far as it goes. The problem is that there are so many deductions, exceptions and exemptions available to those who make more (don't forget the General Electrics of the world who pay NONE) means that even though the rich pay a large amount, it's not what they would pay if they didn't have the loopholes. I much prefer the flat tax whereby everyone pays the same percentage with no deductions, exceptions or exemptions. How could that not be fair?
Yes,we have a progressive tax system where the more you make the more you pay...That's more than fair.....Bill gates said it's only fair since they use more of the resources. ..It's worked for years to their advantage I might say.
Vet - not sure I understand your logic about taking 25% of your income and 25% of Mr. Koch's income not being fair. Are you saying that someone that makes more money should pay more than his share?
The point being is the Tea Party and the John Birch Society have many of the same goals and agendas. "If your Mommie is a Commie then you got to turn her in".
Yeah, about them 'Stros. I think they have a day or two off so they shouldn't lose too many games. Whoppie!
That's right ganso, extra interest on your mortgage payment will show up as a hidden tax.
Not so sure that China is rooting against us because they have a lot of money tied up in T-bills.... I heard investors are looking at Swiss marks, Japanese yen, and Australian notes as opposed to the Euro and the dollar because we can't pass a simple debt ceiling.... President George W. Bush's $7 trillion debt ceiling was passed without cuts.
DaleA clean balance budget might have a tiny chance of passing but I doubt it because it has to have 2/3 of each house and the president's signature just to send it to the states for a ¾ ratification vote. That will take about 6 to 10 years and does nothing for our budget right now. We can't get 2/3 for anything.
The one you are talking about had a poison pill in it... It would take 2/3 each house to raise taxes... That's a nonstarter!
Americans need to be concerned about growth, the unfortunate, spending, revenues, education, and infrastructure. We need to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time because our competitors are not going to wait around for for us to get our fiscal house in order. Austerity only will not lead to growth or create the environment for jobs.
I don't want a Congressman that signs pledges or has to have a floor plan in front of them. A balanced budget would have to have a exception for defense spending etc.,so it's not a cure all..IMO
The only way it would work is by privatizing FEMA.
When we say "fair"treatment let's make sure we don't confuse it with "equal" treatment.
If they take $1 out of my pocket and $1 out of Charles Koch's pocket that would be fair and equal treatment.
It they take 25% of my income and 25% of Charles Koch's income that would be equal but not fair to me. It really comes down to the level of pain we each absorb. I don't want his money (well not all of it) but he is getting SS and medicare and and so am I.
I depend on mine to eat and he depands on his to feed the parking meter for his limo.
If the debt ceiling is not raised the interest rate on the existing debt will increase. This means there will be de facto increased spending with no goods or services provided by the government.
The country may take it on the chin (high income folks too) but the Chi Com bankers will be smiling all the way to....
My stepfather worked as a civilian at Foster Field. I remember him laughing ,when he used to tell us how much a hammer cost.The John Birch Society sponsored a rally for Deborah Medina here in Victoria.
BTW Our Astros can't catch a break... Last night Albert Pujols hit a ball off the wall that was called a home run despite many replays.... He did hit that ball awful hard.
The offers on the table are changing too quickly for me to stay up to the minute. Yesterday, I believe it was, an extention of the debt limit would be allowed in exchange for Congressal action to send a balanced budget amendment to the states for ratification. Congress proved $13 trillion ago they can not manage the budget. I would gladly let the Congressmen protect their re-election (one more time) in exchange for a balanced budget amendment. Americans must be greatly concerned about the debt. This is the opportunity to force fiscal sanity upon Congress.
Great post..... I've been calling for entitlement reform over three years. We should've been raising taxes of ½% on Medicare and another ½% on Social Security all along, to prepare for the baby boomers who would hit this system at the same time.
Shutting down military bases or cutting back on military contracts like is pulling teeth because the lobbyist will spread the cost of one engine to 47 states in order to influence as many legislators as possible.
We should've been given the option of paying for the goodies or getting rid of them.... It's impossible to get rid of Social Security and Medicare because over 80% of the people will not tolerate that or vote for a politician that mentions it...To prove this,a democrat won the New York's 26th Congressional district which had not been done for four decades because the republican candidate said she would back the Ryan plan of privatizing Medicare.
Government waste is been with us since we bought the first musket. The idea of treating citizens fairly and equally is not in the Federal Corporation's vocabulary. No hammers or toilet seats withstanding.
There is a very close relationship to the Koch family and the Tea Party, (and John Birch Society). The Koch's are well represented in our area thanks to the Invista Company that is part of their megacorp.
Thanks for asking. The Bowles-Simpson Act had $ 2 in cuts for every $1 tax increase but I don't see any reason we couldn't go for $3 cut for $1 in tax revenues. I wouldn't want us to start this right away because our economy still struggling; massive cuts work the same way as tax increases. Right now we just need a bipartisan plan to implement as soon as the economy starts to improve.
Our economy is still struggling and our competitors are not gonna wait for us to get our fiscal house in order, so we still have to spend money for jobs programs, education,alternative energy, and repairing the infrastructure.
Post offices need to be close - but not mine.Military bases need to be closed - but not mine.Entitlements need to be adjusted and stream lined - but not mine.Taxes rates need to be adjusted - but not mine.
and it goes on and on.
I'm really not sure why everyone thinks the tax hikes on the top few % will effect them. Can't they figure out that we need more money in circulation "in this Country" if anything positive is ever going to happen? You don't get that money back in circulation if some companies are sitting on their profits and not paying into the tax system all they should be, or are sending the jobs overseas. The money has to stay here and be in circulation.
It is amazing how many Americans kinow just exactly what to do with "other" people's money. That has been the issue for a long time with liberals. They do not want their money touched, but they do want the collective rich to pay for what ever is necessary.
Give me a break. Fify years of hearing this has lead us to this point in history. Spend Spend Spend does not get you out of debt. Printing more money doesn't help either. Our current president is an embarrassment to America as a whole. It is more important to him to play golf, have hip hop parties in the white house, have movie nights, and keep spending like someone who has never been in public, in a suit, much less held a job --oh wait he never has really worked. He keeps having his little temper tantrums, whining and pointing fingers, and saying I want, I want.
Folks we need to pull our belts tight. If you got a copy machine and printed more money --you'd be arrested. So why isn't he everytime he raises the debt ceiling, instead of controlling costs and living within a budget. We have not had a budget in 2 years. Why not? It is about time. All the rest of us have to live by them.
I agree. What would be the highlights of your suggested "balanced cuts"?
I strongly recommend for individuals to take just a couple minutes to go to the website for "2010 u.s. federal budget" and look at the breakdown of the expenditures. It is truly and eye opener.
You can't speak "fair" to the anti-tax crowd because they hate paying income taxes. You see, the highway system, public services, national Parks, and defense should be paid by the other guy. That's why they line up with the multinational corporations against those that might be struggling because of layoffs. It's the same crowd that hates the unions, the minimum wage, equal pay for equal work, clean air and clean water regulations,Wall Street reform or anything else that takes away from the multinationals'bottom line....The Koch Bros. pay a hefty sum to Fox and talk radio to keep their listeners and viewers toeing that line.
I don't think anyone likes paying income taxes but some of us don't mind paying their fair share or coughing up a little more if need be, to make our country strong again. In December of last year we couldn't raise taxes on the top 2% but we were willing to strip the laid off workers of their unemployment compensation. The Federal government is filled with bureaucracy, waste and duplication but we don't need fix all of it by years end. We still have a struggling economy but we just lost 4000 jobs because of the union clause in the FAA contract. They shut everything down and made traveling more difficult because the republican party despises unions.
Again, no one is talking about tax increases right now but if you're referring to the poll, it's a poll of the druthers.
I'm on Social Security and Medicare but I know unless we reform those programs, they won't be in existence for the future. I think we need to cut out some loopholes, and take away some deductions and credits instead of putting the full burden on college students seeking a loan or the elderly who have no other means of income. When you have a demand problem(we do) you can't just start cutting because in our sputtering economy, massive cuts work the same way as tax increases. I think we need a balanced approach.
I worked and paid for everything I and my family have and now some cracked teapot wants me to pay for thier yacht and learjet. Some of these folks act like the "war on poverty" means attack anyone that does not have a $250,000/yr income. Forbes published an article about the highest incomes paid and avarge of 18%. More of that "fair and balanced" tax system?
I know you're limited because of the filtered media you listen to but no one is talking about revenues right now. They were discussing eliminating some tax loopholes but now that's off the table.
I've heard that right wing " I've got mine" rhetoric from the anti-tax crowd my whole adult life but it never resonates because I consider the source...Get it!
Tax increases on those who are considered wealthy is one thing. But in my opinion we need to reduce expenditures or we have no hope of a balanced budget. I glanced at the 2010 federal budget and found that the 2010 money spent for SS, Medicare, Medicade, welfare was up 14.7% over 2009, and the money spent for defense, and the 20 or so departments of the federal government were up 13.9% over 2009. The evidence of this wreckless spending seems to me the larger of the two problems, taxes versus spending.
woof, who are you talking to?
Raise taxes so govco will take care of you. Not me, I will take care of myself. You Obama people want others to pay your way. Rent, utilities, food, all without working. Get over it. It's not going to happen. You do not get it. Quit spending my money . Spend your own money on the stuff that you want. Not mine. Get it?
No remorse here.
You deserve what you voted for.
Lol.... Ron Paul got a total of 42 delegates the last time he ran. Once governor Rick Perry enters the race(in about 3 weeks) in about three weeks ,Paul's 9% will dwindle down to about 3% and he won't be allowed to participate in the overcrowded republican presidential debates.
About 12% of the people believe that we should not pass the debt ceiling, as Ron Paul and and Michelle Bachmann are proposing.... Good luck.
BTW you've worn out that racist statement because 69million people can't all be voting for the same reason. And you wonder why only 20% of the people think like you.
We voters have one more chance. And that is VOTE FOR RON PAUL for president. Since you voted for Obama to prove you not a racist, vote for RON PAUL to prove you are not an idiot.
You're absolutely right, if if it's "class warfare" to think that the middle class has been squeezed for 30 years...Guilty as charged.
Keep posting because you reveal a little bit about yourself with each post.
Is that the same "news" organzition that gave Rubert Murdoch a free pass? The same folks that made Glenn Beck a millionair? Has Sarah Palin on their payroll? The tax paid quisling's of the Tea Party are holding this nation hostage and the poll strongly suggests that the majority of citizens are very unhappy with them. Joe Sixpack is about to do some big time treading of his own.
That would be ideal but we do have a constitution that gives that power to Congress. It's gotten so bad that both plans are considering a bipartisan super Congress of 12 people to figure out the path forward..... We have 535 (534 today) legislators and we're leaving it to 12 people to decide. If I were a congressman, I would be upset.
You're absolutely right, the American people are sick and tired of this... The proof, the other night the president urged the public to call their representatives and call they did jamming several servers. I just heard this morning that if you tried to call your representative, his/her line was probably busy.
I wouldn't want the details of the negotiation to be made public, just for the sake of sensationalism.
Oh how I agree with you - the American public is wearing down on this issue as much because we have the media telling us what to think and how to think 24-7. Seems it is becoming less about the facts and more about the "eminent disaster" for us.
What would impress me the most is for Mr. President and Mr. Speaker to put their reelection bids and their power struggle aside for 30 days and find the best solution for the American public - that would make them real men in my eyes.
I'm not at all surprised..:-)
You're not wrong we're just phrasing it differently.... The GOP has 41 votes, enough to prevent it from coming to the floor or passing but one lonely senator can filibuster and the bill would die until the filibusters broken. It's also common practice to just take a vote of unanimous consent where it is done by e-mail or a voice vote but this vote is to important for that.
As you probably know, a good house and senate leader won't bring up a vote unless they know a bill will pass... I feel sorry for John Boehner because he's had about five are six bills that went up for vote and failed in the house.
I prefer FOX NEWS and FOX BUSINESS for information about the National economy, good luck with MSNBC, CNB, and NBC praising the annoited one, y'all will need it. Yes he can!
MikeOne thing I am learning in this process is the mechanics of how things work in Congress. You said the Senate Minority Leader would not allow a bill to come to the floor. I know the Senate Majority Leader controls the committee chairmen and has the power to stop legislation to come before the floor. I think you meant to say the Senate needs 60 votes to consider legislation and if the Senate Minority leader has influence over the people in his party and if they vote as a block, they can prevent the legislation from coming to the floor.If I am wrong on this let me know.
Good question....But revealing those written documents that will never come up for vote, will only strain relationships between the leader of the house and the president. I wouldn't want the details of the negotiation to be made public, just for the sake of sensationalism.
I think the middle class has been squeezed for 30 years and now they've had enough, so they think it's time for the people that did well during our financial crisis to share accordingly.