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"Well reasoned arguments" is where the fringe groups (and a few individules) become a brick wall. As you mentioned it is a joy to listen to open minds discussing diverse/opposing points of view.
Elevated conversation is the nutrition of a clear mind and a civilized society. Other side of that coin is "the dark side", and it ain't a movie.
I agree about the fringe groups vet43 but I think well reason arguments can be made on existing amendments; even though it's settled law..... I remember channel surfing one Saturday afternoon when I came across a debate between justice Souter and Scalia on the second amendment. My mind was going back and forth like an observer at a ping pong tournament.... I was a specially surprised about what justice Scalia said about a person's rights as a passenger in the car. He asked if he's not the owner the car, and he is not been cited ,can he can just walk away? And he questioned whether the officer could question him, if he was not the reason for the initial stop...
As we are all on at times....:-)
Well, Mike, I guess he's as hard-headed in his way as I am in mine.
The fringe groups that seem to always be on the verge of insurrection will haunt us forever. Just look for the mob with pitchforks and torches. They seem to be experts on the constitution and bible for every twisted "cause" they say they will die for. Sadly they don't mind taking good people with them.
If only....We had the constitution up our computer but he said the 16th amendment was never ratified... And then he said they were only empowered to collect excise taxes and wages weren't taxable...He said "wages and other forms of compensation for personal services are not income, but rather that there can be no taxable gain when someone exchanges his labor for money."..... We pulled up the IRS web site but then he said" they are a propagandist agency.... What would you expect?" ....... And it went on and on until the boss came by and said" I'm sure I can find some make do work, if you have that much time to argue nonsense."..We weren't offended but he was.
Opps I mean Constitution.
Right wing nut jobs( ie; Birthers, Birchers, and Citizens ) need to understand this before waving the pocket conststuion in my face or talk stupid on Edith Ann’s blog.1st power of Congess.The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imports and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United StatesThe 8th power of Congress.To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.6th power.To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States.
Mike...It should have been an easy answer. Borrow his copy of the Constitution and point to the Sixteenth Amendment. The Sixteenth is as much a part of the Constitution as the Second. That SHOULD have shut him up.
born2BmeIt's funny you should mention that because that was always the argument we put up.. We asked if he should help pay for the public schools, libraries, and highways... He pulled out his pocket edition constitution, he always carried, and told us to show him where he was required to get robbed by the government each week .... It was like arguing with a "birther;" contrary evidence is never accepted.... I think he just wanted to justified his selfishness.
GOP LOVE child.
I love you man. LOL
It's quite commical that these guys b#tch about paying taxes ands following rules but seem to demand and enjoy all that taxes provide for them. Maybe they should just leave this Country so they don't have to worry about said intrusions into their lives. Of course, they won't have all of the comforts and protects anymore, but whatever floats their boat.
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Good thing these guys weren't black, native or hispanic before the 70s.Because then the would have known what oppresion is all about.
I remember the old Republic of Texas militia of which some coworkers were members of... I also remember a standoff on group of the Republic of Texas had with the state of Texas. We were headed to El Paso in 1997, on I-10 but we were delayed because the authorities were looking for the militia men.Several militia groups broke up after the 1995 Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building bombing but they are now resurfacing.
reeder: And medical and dental.
MIKE:In your reply to Vet 43, " The second school of thought comes when authorities are asked "since all the signs were there...why didn't you act sooner?" sounds like those nutless Army pukes who didn't drum out that psyco nut that killed those 13.
MikeI retired in Jan of 1999 and the term sovereign citizen is new to me. However there has always been an element in the population that hates government rules and laws. I have seen numerous forms of trouble makers in the work force and worked hard to avoid having them in the group, I supervised. Even then, I still managed to get a few. Some of them were Yankees and just did not fit in with their co-workers and some I felt just had mental or drug problems.
Point well taken. And some are the quiet digital clock! Then there are the large, unblinking eyes and foam around the mouth. Wait that is only in the movies.
I can only imagine how family, friends and neighbors deal with the aftermath and say "we didn't know". The leap from school yard bully to torturing small animals is a big red light.
Just saying the words " tick,tock, tick, tock" will inflame some, because they feel the first amendment gives them a right to be obnoxious and threatening.... The second school of thought comes when authorities are asked "since all the signs were there...why didn't you act sooner?".... I guess you can't expect everyone to be trained psychiatrists but that doesn't mean we can't come up with our own analysis.
They are all gullible..... The former coworker I was talking about hated the Internal Revenue Service with a passion. We all knew that, but every now and then some prankster would get on the computer read aloud something like this " IRS to start taxing employee parking lots as a fringe benefit" just to see him go into a fit. He wouldn't even go to the computer to verify the story....Just before I retired, a new young boss called us in ,minus the "sovereign citizen," and warned us that we would be responsible if we did anything to set the nut case off.
From time to time I will meet someone who fits this discription or has a very bizarre view of our government and the laws we live under as a civilized society. Then every once in a while we will read comments left on the Victoria Advocate's web site that send chills up my spine, and thanks to the Vicads management if they go to far off the edge they are removed.
While I fully support the Adocates right and common sense regarding these "rants" it does come with a price. Because every once in a while when I hear or read one of the comments that are only there to inflame I think the paper and the public are missing the warning the comments send out loud and clear.
Tick, Tock, Tick. Most, I believe, are just frustrated, confused or very misguided souls that just love to vent. But then comes the news, maybe from Phoenix, that the clock has run out. Once the anger turns to raw hate those around the person must speak out.
The 1st and 2nd Amendments are the heart of our rights but once anyone decides that they are the law we and our loved ones are at risk. It is up to each of us to do the right thing and speak up.
NCB,At least now, he doesn't have pay income taxes! In some ways, he may be better off: three meals a day, free room and board, no taxes. Hey, he could be one of our model "welfare" citizens.
I worked with a "Sovereign Citizen" for some time. I have to say he was very different. He didn't pay income tax for years because he felt it was unconstitutional to collect - last I heard he was in prison somewhere here in Texas. Of course he is probably saying they can't hold him either.