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More hilarious stuff. Well it's all in good taste and OK if you are a democrat.http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/r...
Imagine the outcry had a Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity, or O'reilly made the same stupid remark. The 4 haters of everything on the right would be loosing their minds about now. But hey, it's just Barney Frank. LOL!
George Zimmerman Case: Should Charges Be Dropped?
I don't think these "prominent US Lawyers understand that this debacle has reached an area far outside the law, justice or any other facet of the processes we use here in the US for determining innocence or guilt.
I don't care how any of you spin it, Zimmerman was directly, or at least indirectly, responsible for what happened because "he" was following someone he shouldn't have been following. He was taking the law into his own hands and going against what the dispatcher told him to do.Whether or not there had been burglaries in that area is a non-issue. Even if Trayvon had attacked Zimmerman in those last minutes, more than likely it is what he thought he needed to do to save himself from some lunatic that was out to do him harm (in his mind). Zimmerman knew he was armed, and didn't know if Trayvon was armed. That should tell some of you something. Do you honestly think that Zimmerman would have approached a shifty-looking stranger that could have been armed and, as he said, that he thought was "older" if he wasn't ready to use his weapon? Common sense tells me that Zimmerman probably had his hand on his gun at all times, just in case. Trayvon must have , or maybe, seen that and reacted.Now, am I spinning a tall tale? Maybe, but it's the only way it works in my mind.
How true it would be to say the needless death of a 17 year old that did belong there is indeed an "outcome that wasn't perfect".
There is probably a big difference between two completely unknown parties walking down a street neither had been on before and the situation that exists in Sanford.
Zimmermans neighborhood or the area he was watching had been repeatedly vandalized or robbed. He was looking for people that didn't belong. Unfortunately Trayvon happened along.None of us were there and had to deal with the robberies and previously escaping individuals.I can see where it would be very easy (especially using hindsight) to say Zimmerman should have stayed in his car. Decisions made as an event is occuring are seldom the same as we would make afterward, especially if they result in an outcome that wasn't perfect.
Stillthewaywardwind is right on. It is not about what someone said or what some news source said but about a very stupid act that left a young man dead.
Shoot him in the leg?!?! On television, maybe, but not in a real life or death situation. You might make him mad and you'd have a REAL fight on your hands. I don't know why Zimmerman didn't stay in the car; it was beyond stupid for him to get out and go looking for Martin. Had he stayed in the car, he would not have gotten beat up, he wouldn't be under a murder indictment, he wouldn't have had to hire a lawyer(s). Oh, and Martin would still be alive.
Here is a great example of news agencies taking a few liberties with the Headline of an article...
Headline: Trayvon Martin Witness Believes 'He Intended for This Kid to Die'
Story: A woman identified as witness 5 walked out of her home after hearing the altercation to find Zimmerman standing over Martin's body. She said she asked him what was going on and he curtly said just, "Call the police." "I do honestly feel that he intended for this kid to die," witness 5 told investigators. "If you're in self defense, shoot him in the leg. He's a 17-year-old, scrawny little kid. You get into a physical fight with him. ... I think the kid was running for help."
Sadly this worthless witness (# 5) saw nothing as she arrived after everything was over. Then made up a great story based on her opinion, not from witnessing anything.
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Pretty good video here...http://gma.yahoo.com/video/news-26797...
Hmmm, this is interesting... http://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-...
The base facts of this tragic event have not changed in any way. Don't think all the "WRONGS" in the world will never alter the facts and draw conclusions with out the need for a jury decision and verdict.
As I have suggested since the very beginning of this discussion on the Vicad website. Some of you should take your own advise more often and convict people after the facts are available. Go read some of your early posts on this. I think even you will understand my meaning... and point.
For some reason you early blamers are getting more and more willing to let a jury setttle this case. I find that very funny.
The only problem with " armed 28 year old male followed a 17 year old unarmed male" is how did Zimmerman know Martin was not armed? And how did Martin know Zimmerman was armed? Obviously decisions were made that night in ignorance.
Lets see what we have:
An armed 28 year old male followed a 17 year old unarmed male. The 17 year old was killed by a gun shot to the chest. A jury has not heard any facts or evidence presented in a court of law and have not rendered a verdict.
Everything else is what specials interest has said to support their narrow agenda and carry's no weight. Let the system work. It is all that keeps us from clubbing each other.
Well lets see what we have?1) Pictures of a 12 year old child being used as what the monster Z-man killed. - WRONG!2) Z-man portrayed as vicious, black hating racist - WRONG!3) A bounty placed on Z-man -WRONG!4) Black leaders calling for his arrest - WRONG!5) Z-man considered a murderer - UNKNOWN (but many think they know)6) No injuries on Z-man, he must be lying - Looks WRONG right now7) Z-man accosted or confronted Trayvon - UNKNOWN8) No such thing as suspicious people - WRONG!9) Cops at Sanford were trying to cover up a murder - Appears WRONG!10) Z-man repeatedly accused of crimes that he was charged with and not convicted of - Thats just WRONG!11) Information being released to strategically stifle the states case - Really?... Really?
Those that made the outrageous claims with only the absolute minimum of credible evidence know who they are. They are the reason innocent people are sent to prison, because they were considered guilty before the evidence began to be gathered.
Pretty detailed article on Zimmermanhttp://www.reuters.com/article/2012/0...
Jason, and the second sentence in that article says what?....
" The O’Mara Law Group has confirmed this page did belong to Mr. Zimmerman, though it was hacked into, and George abandoned it"
So who knows what was really him and what was added by others. There's people out there that want to murder him without a trial based up guesswork and supposition, to hell with the law. so who's to say what's real in a hacked account?
I'm not for or against Zimmerman, I'm for letting the law and courts to handle it and everyone else to settle down and STFU. it's outta hand because of idiots like Al Sharpton stirring up sh**
Ruh Roh, looks like someone dug up some serious dirt on Z-man. LOL!
They found a 2005 Myspace page of Z-mans and he said some bad stuff about mexicans. Here is the funny part, they are saying he had a "history of racial profiling". LMAO!
Feel free to visit http://gzlegalcase.com/ to show your support for Zimmerman. You can also donate to the defense fund once they get the system up and running.
First Blood was a great movie. All that Rambo crap that followed it was exactly that.
Why does not hearing any sypmathetic cries from you in these cases not suprise me in the slightest? Oh that's right, they were white people. No need for worrying here, no need for media outrage, Presidential input, marches, t-shirts, pictures of young innocent looking victims, these crimes don't matter. LOL!
You gotta love it.
May want to think about the "they beat up (person's to be named later)" as an argument regarding the death of an unarmed minor. All the bad things in the world do not change that act of violence. Rambo was a movie and not that good. We do not need the same mentality out cleaning up the streets.
Looks like we have us a nice task force trying to decide the fate of the Stand Your Ground law. I'm sure this task force is made up of a few people that know something, a few politicians that don't, and a few more that are simply there to make certain members of the public feel good and have absolutely no idea what they are talking about,
Why no outrage or marches over the following cases???? I bet you folks whining about all this are just besdie yourselves with anger, right? LOL!
On Wednesday, 18-year-old Alton Hayes was charged with a hate crime for beating and robbing a white man in the Chicago suburb of Oak Park, Ill. He told police he was angry over the Trayvon case, in which neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman, who is part-white and part Hispanic, says he shot Trayvon in self-defense.
On Saturday, a group of black people severely beat a white man in Mobile, Ala., with one participant reportedly claiming, “Now, that’s justice for Trayvon.” Mobile police say the attack was not motivated by the Trayvon case.
On April 11, when a white man attempting to stop a black purse-snatcher in Gainesville, Fla., attracted a crowd, some people started shouting "Trayvon!" and three people in the crowd started stomping on the white man's hands. Earlier in the week, a white man in the town said he was beaten by several black men who shouted "Trayvon," but police said he was intoxicated and could not confirm his report.
I'm anxiously awaiting the media to jump all over this and see Sharpton and his pathetic entourage behind a microphone screaming like an idiot over these acts real soon... Yeah right.
Judge could allow Zimmerman to be released on bond of $150,000.00 despite prosecutions argument for $1,000,000.00
Zimmerman's parents, who testified by phone because they fear for their safety, told the court their son would not be a flight risk nor a threat to the community if released... Sad that they "fear for their safety".
Zimmermans apologizes..."I wanted to say I am sorry for the loss of your son," a stoic Zimmerman said from the witness stand. "I did not know how old he was. I thought he was a little bit younger than I am and I did not know if he was armed or not."
Is it possible he's not the racist monster many here "hoped and thought" he was?
"Arrest the pink panthers and the leaders of NBC"? Yes, there is a very serious problem with drugs in Victoria. That can be the only reason for a stupid comment like that.
Must have been something he heard on Fox News.
Ok arrest the new panthers, but also the kkk, the neo nazis, and others.
Now that Zimmeman is in custody. Maybe we can get the feds to arrest the pink panthers and the leaders of NBC!
Michael Isikoof of NBC News is reporting that the special prosecutor is charging Zimmerman with 2nd degree murder which has a 10-20 year maximum penalty but we'll see in 7 minutes.
If you need some facts from a news agency that doesn't create their own news, try this link.http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/11/...
NBC news is reporting that George Zimmerman has been arrested and charges will be read in about 20 minutes...Mr. Zimmerman's location will not be disclosed .
Thanks to the Associated Press the Net Work of Homer Simpson had a morsel to throw to the far right to gnaw on like a second hand bone.
NBC appears to be trying to begin developing some credibility.http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upshot/nb...
Thanks Fox for seeing this and reporting the attempt by NBC to create news instead of just reporting the facts.
March 29-Apr 1Coverage of Trayvon's DeathThose who followed case most closely
White............24%Black.............58%Republican.....19%Democrat.......38%White Dem.....31%Independent....28%----------------------------------------------------------------------% saying too much coverageWhite...............43%Black...............16%Republican.......56%Democrat.........25%White Dem.......33%Independent......37%
FOX News coverage has been great as usual. My favorite part, to this point, was when the esteemed fair & balanced FOX anchor Geraldo Rivera stated, on air,
“Trayvon’s hoodie killed him as surely as George Zimmerman did."
and then apologized to Trayvon's parents a few days later for his comments.
I'm just grateful FOX is keeping an eye on the other networks so the race baiting doesn't get cranked up.
No arrests have been made in this case much less case brought to trial but NBC has already been proven to have deliberately altered a 911 tape and broadcast the altered tape as factual.
Fox news. Fair and balanced. And Homer wrote the news copy. From the folks that brought you Glenn Beck. Fair and balanced?
I stand correct. However my comment was geared towards Jasonborne/David Webb.
Correction writein I did not say Fox was the best. I said the poll showed that Fox was the best
If this case goes trial, people will see if their network of choice rushed to judgement ,presented the actual facts or were behind in their reporting ...every network has their creditable journalist and then they have the entertainers....
From the Texas code Note only a "reasonable belief they are threatened is required " NO RETREAT IS REQUIRED
Deadly Force in Defense of Person"A person is justified in using deadly force against another if he would be justified in using force under Section 9.31 of the statute when and to the degree he reasonable believes that deadly force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force, if a reasonable person in the same situation would have not retreated. The use of deadly force is also justified to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, rape or robbery." "Reasonable Belief"It is not necessary that there should be actual danger, as a person has the right to defend his life and person from apparent danger as fully and to the same extent as he would have were the danger real, as it reasonably appeared to him from his standpoint at the time.""In fact, Sec 9.31(a) [of the Penal Code] expressly provides that a person is justified in using deadly force against another when and to the degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary."
c) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force is used is not required to retreat before using deadly force as described by this section.(d) For purposes of Subsection (a)(2), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (c) reEasonably believed that the use of deadly force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat.
Bighorn...Good enough. Sorry I misunderstood. I thought you were describing YOUR intentions. My apologies.
Since you bought up Andrew Brietbart, I hope that God had sat him down and tell him the errors of his ways in the mistreatment of Mrs. Shirley Sherrod.
If Fox was busy then they should be firing reporters and some talk show hosts. Geraldo ‘Jerry’ Rivera should be fired for giving way American troop positions on live television. Then Bill ‘O Reilly should be fired for sexual harassment. Finally the man I consider an enemy and a warmonger, Sean Hannity should be investigated for his ties with Neo- Nazi leader Hal Turner, who by the way threaten the life of then Senators Obama and Clinton in 2007.
Do not attempt to bring up CNN or that horrible MSNBC as a lame straw man reply. I don’t like them as well especially the most hated Al Sharpton and Pries Morgan.
Fox is busy not only reporting the fair & balanced news but at the same time monitoring the childish activities of the other so called news agencies.It's tough being Fox and having double duty. The others simply create their own news.
I'm sure it was an honest mistake. LOL!http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journali...
So true ,writein,Georgia Zimmerman's father is of German descent and his mother is from Peru....call it whatever they want because it has nothing to do with the case.
IMO...President Obama is black because of obvious dominant features and he is very comfortable being called black......and that too has nothing to do with this cae.
Bloomington.It seems that you are hung up on why President is Black and not half white. Here is the answer, if the father is black, then the child is black. Zimmerman is white because his father is. Don’t blame me, or the President, Hale Berry, or anyone else. There was such thing as the brown paper bag rule.
You say Fox News is the best. OK….then why is Sean Hannity and his buddies try to distract from the case and bringing up other crimes that have nothing to do with Trayvon Martin or Zimmerman? Can you answer that question?
Forgot one item.Trayvon was pronounced dead @ 7:32 PM
Family wants to know why it has been reported that a member(s) we're at the police stationwhen Zimmerman arrived....George's dad is not a former judge ,he was a magistrate what we call a justice of the peace ...very little power.
NBC's Michael isikoff is reporting that the FBI is doing a full forensic investigation into a possible civil rights violation....They are going over Zimmerman's 46 ...9/11 calls in 15 months for possible racial profiling....FBI is complaining about shoddy police work of Sanford police...No trajectory evidence..
Zimmerman made the first call @ 7:11pm hung up @ 7:15 pm and police get 9/11 call from neighbor reporting shots fired...4 minutes later....Martin's family lawyer wants to know why state prosecutor and police chief were at the scene so quick....
Everyone has heard from the two voice experts with 99% sure voice crying for help was not Trayvons.....scuffle for less than 3 minutes unarmed teen ager dead.
A lot questions unanswered.
Actually, Wind, I was portraying what I believe Zimmerman's mindset to have been. Having more than a bit of that in me, I think I understand. Hopefully, I'll use better judgement than him, but question my actions. I wouldn't want to be put through the holy crap hitting him.
Bighorn..."This is my neighborhood. My street. My City. My County. My State. My Country. You hide. I'll act."
Good luck with that. I hope it works out better for you than it did for Zimmerman. If anybody ends up dead, I sincerely hope it's you who's still around to tell the story. I never heard of a law in Texas similar to the "Stand Your Ground" law in Florida. Texas has the Castle Doctrine so that you don't have to retreat IN YOUR HOME and can shoot when the bad guy comes in the door. I don't know about confronting somebody down the street. I do not know if you are legally required to retreat if you're not on your property. If you're lucky, you'll get somebody like me on the jury and you'll walk -- at worst the jury will be hung. If you're not lucky, you'll get people like J who will be anxious to to hang you by your ..... uhhh, ankles over a fire.
Sorry to hear of your distress.
Please review all my comments. I have tried very hard not to mention the race of either party and I do not believe I have at any time. The reason is I am not concerned with the racial aspect because there is no evidence there is one. Seems others are having a great deal of stress because the feel there is an injustice being done and I would agree.
Vet43: "How hard are you hung up on the race/minority thing. Even those on the right side of the isle may learn that some people deserve respect without what race they belong to."
I am not hung up at all on it. I am pissed off that others are turning it into a race thing.
Race should and does not have anything to do with it but for what the a$$hole media and people like Al Sharpton are creating out of it.
It is others who are creating a racial issue out of it. And that pisses me off.
Thank you for being very clear on your feelings.
It's not that I disrespect him. I actually have no feeling towards the guy whatsoever. I do however disrespect all the people that have tried to make him out to be a sweet, kind, innocent, pillar of society who was the victim of another racially motivated killer white person.
Example. Recently a woman was killed by a couple that lured her out by claiming their vehicle was broke down. She went to help them and they brutally murdered her. The family of the killers claim these two could never have done anything like this.
I tend to filter out the hogwash in a story based on who is speaking. Show me facts and I'll believe Trayvon was a wonderful child who was well on his way to being all the things you say. Otherwise it falls into the hogwash category until I see it is true and not just a bunch of lip flapping.
A bunch of people die every day. I can't help it if I don't get all worked up every time it happens.
Sad to think some would show the lack of compassion for a young man that none of of us has ever met and yet we should not at least show respect for his loss of life and the grief of his family.
I respect the 17 year old that could not have done so much to cause disrespect from people that never met him.
I think you may have also tried to get a shot in on those to the "right" side of the isle.
Why would Trayvon deserve respect? Because someone here thinks he should? I didn't know the young man and I'm betting aside from what we have heard in the news, no one else here knows him, his family, his habits, or otherwise.
I'm with bighorn.
Ok. The best advise is to call the cops and hide? BS on that. This is my neighborhood. My street. My City. My County. My State. My Country. You hide. I'll act.
Was that Mr. Zimmerman's mindset?
I was commenting about the young man that lost his life deserving respect.
Jason aka David Webb.
Let me add this. You never respect people in the first place.
Since you bring up my name and put it in the same sentence with Al Sharpton, you will never have and never will deserve any respect from me. You are nothing but a loud mouth Archie Bunker wannabe.
"Even those on the right side of the isle may learn that some people deserve respect without what race they belong to".
Everyone deserves respect until they show me they don't.
A short list of those that don't...Sharpton, the NBPP, people that scream into their cell phone in a public place, writein.
How hard are you hung up on the race/minority thing. Even those on the right side of the isle may learn that some people deserve respect without what race they belong to.
And people with 6 toes. Minority is kind of a gray area.
What I would like to know, especially from Mike as he is a diehard liberal and Obama supporter/apologist....
Is what is your take on the INACTION of Obama and Eric Holder on the actions of the new Black Panthers and their public contract assassination hit on Mr. Zimmerman. The "Wanted, Dead or Alive" reward put out on him.
For putting a contract hit out on Zimmerman, the member of the New Black Panthers should be arrested on sight! But Holder is giving them a free pass to do so. Just as what happened during their voter intimidation campaign during the last election.
And the liberal idiots on hollywood, putting out the personal address of Mr. Zimmerman and in the case of Snoopdumba$$... the WRONG address of an innocent elderly couple.
Since you are a supporter and apologist of all things liberal... How do you justify it?
I'm not attacking you... I really would like to know your take on it.
Al Sharpton's employer NBC set the standard for truthful reporting pretty low, so why are we surprised that NBC should employ and tolerate a proven race baiter such as Sharpton See Tawana Brawlee case. NBC totally and purposefully broadcast a bogus distortion of Zimmerman's call to 911.
Great news right there. As exposed by Fox News and media watchdog site NewsBusters, the “Today” segment took this approach to a key part of the dispatcher call:
NBC version "Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black."Here’s how the actual conversation went down:
"Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about".
"Dispatcher: OK, and this guy — is he black, white or Hispanic?"Zimmerman: He looks black."The difference between what “Today” put on its air and the actual tape? Complete: In the “Today” version, Zimmerman volunteered that this person “looks black,” a sequence of events that would more readily paint Zimmerman as a racial profiler. In reality’s version, Zimmerman simply answered a question about the race of the person whom he was reporting.
Fox News blew the whistle on them. Is it any wonder that polls show that Fox News is the most trusted news station on TV?
The truth is an unarmed 17 year old male was shot by an 28 armed male.
For some reason there are folks that believe everything is white and black (or any other skin tone).
George Zimmerman was a white man who had targeted a black youth, conducted an act of violence on him because of his race, and was now being broadly protected by a system of whites
If anyone believes this they are racist of the first degree willing to believe Al Sharpton. Remember the Rev Al and Tawana Brawley case?.
But none of that happens to be true.
George Zimmerman has nearly the same amount of Caucasian blood in him as President Obama does. This alone --as in the President's case -- is an argument against his "whiteness," yet in the majority of early reports (and now, to those who write on here and rant on TV the truth doesn't matter.(
Why is it strange that someone in a neighborhood watch group have a large amount of 911 calls? Isn't that what these groups are for- to alert the.police?
The EEOC has race as only one part of the categories of minorities regarding Equal Employment. If we look closely there are very few people that are truly mono-racial. If DNA profiling was required of every human how many would be 100% pure(?) Caucasian? Really?
Stay on point. A 17 year old male is dead. What was the cause of death? He was shot to death. The EEOC is not part of the issue.
The EEOC IS the standard for deciding the per centage of minorities who should be hired and defining what constitutes a minority. In employment (also in school class room balance) cases Hispanic are classified as minorities. Along with Blacks, American Indians, Orientals.
Bighorn...Yeah, call the cops. THAT'S what they're for. Now, you might get a reputation if you call 50 or more times, but if somebody or a couple of somebodys hang around your house ringing your doorbell and just won't take "no" for an answer, call the cops. I was a 9-1-1 dispatcher for a while back in the 1990s. You will NOT be stigmatized for a legitimate call for assistance. It's better for the cop to look around for a person who might or might not be legitimate rather than a full fledged investigation into a burglary or homicide. Zimmerman would be still the neighborhood watch guy and Martin would still be alive if Zimmerman had called 9-1-1 and left it at that. DON'T confront people you don't know who might be armed, crazy or up to no good. If you don't call and these door knockers break into the home of one of your easy mark neighbors and hurt that person and steal his/her valuables, how would you feel if you realized you could possibly have prevented that break-in by making a phone call? Think of it this way, if no one calls the police for help, all that is left for them to do is set up radar traps. :) Give them the opportunity to do some some useful police work and protect the neighborhood. Remember, YOU help pay their salaries; you might as well get some good from your taxes.
The EEOC is not the standard for the study of anthropology. Hispanic is an ethnic group, not a race. You seem to be fixated on 1/2 of President Obama's racial makeup as he is bi-racial. His parents were not part of the tragic death of an unarmed minor male.
Perhaps I should mention, aprox 1/4 of my neighboring residents are relatively easy "marks". Two elderly couples, a couple with a diabled child, a couple of single mothers, and several shift workers who are gone during not so normal hours. Several of we able-bodied look after those folks a little more than others.
So, SWWW, your advise is to call 911 and become stigmatized as Mr. Zimmerman has been? Regardless of events of the shooting, somehow Mr. Zimmerman's diligence is seen as some as incriminating evidence.
Bighorn..."I was unarmed. Was that proper? Or stupid?"
I wouldn't call you stupid, but I'd say you were fortunate. Do you have a peephole in your door or a window where you can observe the person ringing your bell without being seen yourself? If so, use it. Do not open the door to anyone whom you do not know or are not expecting. If they are persistent, call 9-1-1 and make notes of any identifying features you can see through the peephole. People have no right to demand you open your closed and locked door just because they push your doorbell button.
Hispanics not a race? For years on job applications any company under the EEOC required the RACE of an applicant to be noted. Spanish was one of the choices. They were noted as SSAs Spanish surname American. In other words NON CAUCASIAN May not be a race but they definitely demand to be considered a MINORITY and receive those benefits. .Still why is President Obama consider to be of the Black race when he is 50% white?
Interestingly, I had a neighborhood situation recently. Recent activities have included a number door to door solictors that blantantly disregard "No Solicting" signs. Coupled with that have been three break ins to homes and vehicles. Local PD advise is that the solicators may actually be phony, and using their "cover" to in fact identify vacant homes, and actually get a breif view (through a presumed open fron door) of the homes contents. After a target has been identified (big screen TV's, game systems and laptops said to be a favorite), a vehicle filled with the phony sales rep associates enter the home primarily through the back entrances.
Victoria PD advised locking back acess to yards, keeping garage doors closed, and noting any and all potential door-to-door sales activities.
Roll forward and a particular Saturday noon time frame-two mid 20's young men going door to door identifying themselves as with a well-known security system company. Having first hand knowledge that company DOES NOT hire door-to-door folk (some of their contractors do), I approached one of the young men, and asked for picture ID, and who he REALLY worked for. He pointed to his name tag as ID, and repeated that he worked for the supposed company. When asked who he REALLY worked for, and this time aggresively asking for picture ID, he nervously shouted across the street for in companion, who allegedly was his boss to come address me. When the same ID was requested, he handed me a business card stating he supposedly worked for a contractor out of Spring. When he was advised that if I didn't get possitive proof of ID immediately, they were going to be detained with the right to ID themselves to the PD, they exited immediately to around the corner and their waiting car. I kept the business card in the event a problem showed up in the neighborhood.
I acted in agressive nature when approaching two much younger men. Broad daylight. Neigbors as potential eyewitness. At advise of local PD (well, maybe not the aggressive part). I'm likely as old as they were combined. What would/should have been my approach? They both misidentified their employer to me. Multiple times. Both lied. Both refused to show positive ID.
Should I have called to PD and become stigmatized as Zimmerman for being a "problem" in reporting potentials?
Should I have locked the door, and ignored them?
Am I a good neighbor for paying attention and taking action? Or a pain in the butt for interfering?
I was unarmed. Was that proper? Or stupid?
This happened only a few weeks ago, and I've been disturbed by those events, and my actions as well. Both young men were hispanic. I am not. Should that matter?
Mr. Zimmerman is white. Hispanic is not a race. It is an ethnic group that is part of the Caucasian race.
If President Obama who is half white is considered a minority, why isn't Zimmerman who is also reported to be half white not considered a minority? Then the shooting would be a minority killing a minority.
Is that the same William J Bennett that said years ago 'you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down."?
Still Bennett fail to mention the actions of the County Attorney. Someone better ask him that.
Look here, this is actually a pretty good read courtesy of CNN or William Bennet.
Evidently it's a one way street when it comes to stalking (no two times in Florida)" On Tuesday the Sanford Police released a statement saying that journalists who try to contact city employees "when they are in their roles as private citizens," calling it "stalking," would be arrested. "
The media is still putting out bits and pieces such as CBS is reporting" that the funeral director who handled Martin’s body told CBS that he saw no injuries consistent with a fight, and an anonymous source is telling the New York Daily News that Zimmerman had lost a job as a security guard for being too aggressive.".....I don't know what to make of it because it's beginning to look like the media frenzy from the O.J trial. That's good in a way because it keeps information pouring but it has to be vetted.
Are we sure that there was a fight?
If some one is armed and confronts an unarmed person and the unarmed person is in fear for their life is it legal to defend yourself against an armed person? If you feel you only have one chance to survive then to fight makes sense. The scales of justice should include someone to speak for those who can't speak for themselves.
There is also the possibility the Mr. Martin may have been fighting because he feared for his life and sadly lost.
That's not what I'm saying at all... And a lot of people are a guilty until proven innocent in the court of public opinion. That doesn't count.
I'm saying if someone takes a life; law enforcement should not just take the word of the shooter that everything was justified. It should be investigated like any other case
Please don't get me wrong. I'm not defending Zimmerman. Cop-wanna-be's frequently seem to find themselves involved in questionable incidents. His past indicates he has not always made the best decisions, but if he genuinely shot Martin because he feared for his life, during the course of an assault on him by Martin...the incident would likely be deemed self defense.
@Mike, according to you the burden of proof should be on the accused? So essentially what you are saying is that you are "guilty" until proven innocent? Wow, now those aredangerous waters to tread. You really believe that?
George Zimmerman was a self appointed captain of a neighborhood watch. A neighborhood watch does not have any more authority than a good Samaritan does. And we mustn't lose sight of the fact that the 9/11 operator told Mr. Zimmerman not to pursue.
We don't know much about the trust Trayvon(justified or not) had for law enforcement nor do we know the extent of his fear. These things can get exaggerated, so that's why the FBI might check the voice pattern of the cell phone call and the 9/11 call. I don't know why you wouldn't have a right to confront some one you presume to be a stalker, pest, or anything else but there are consequences for assault and battery.
You may be right on the stalking law but Zimmerman had made 46 calls to 9/11 and he does have a violent past but he is a graduate of anger management...Everything must be considered before we declare it a justified killing..And no one is saying that it is but I think the burden of proof should be on the shooter...It's that not way in Florid. In fact that's the reason he wasn't arrested according to the Sanford police. Under the Stand-Your-Ground law they did not have probable cause. .. That too may have been a misstatement by the police spokesman.
vet43, agreed. The outcome is disturbing, tragic, horrible, all of the above. Unfortunately, it doesn't necessarily mean it's illegal. It seems you are struggling with the loss of life, like most Americans. No doubt, it's a terrible event, most likely completely avoidable, but nonetheless so far I don't think the leagl community is convinced that Mr. Zimmerman committed a crime. Certainly not a crime that's easily identified nor a crime that can be proven.
Still having a problem with the out come of this tragic event. If Mr. Zimmerman had used common sense a 17 YO young man would not be dead. He could have "watched or followed" the unknown person in his car until the police arrived or Mr. Martin went in his house. There would have been no event of unknown details taking place and no one would be dead.
Mike...several elements must be present for stalking to occur as stated in the penal code statute you posted. The most important is that it has to occur on more than occasion and lead the stalked person to believe bodily injury or death at the hands of the person following him is going to occur. It is not a matter of 1/2 or 2/3 elements being present...they must all be there. In regards to the Zimmerman/Martin mess, I have not seen where Zimmerman and Martin had ever had prior contact. It also does not appear that Martin felt he was in fear of his safety, evidenced by the fact that he did not use his cell phone to call law enforcement but did call his girl. Also, a person who is in fear of his safety should not confront the individual he feels is a threat and certainly should not initiate a physical confrontation with him. To do so is only asking for trouble.
Brady and Jason you are both correct. The operative words in the Stalking statutes is "on more than one occassion". In addition the police would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman had "intent" to commit one of the crimes within the stalking statute. You may not like it, and you may not agree, but Brady hit the nail on the head. Merely being followed gives noone the right to use physical force against another.
Here is an excerpt from the Texas Attorney General's Homepage:
Texas Stalking Law
The law on stalking can be found in Section 42.072 of the Texas penal code.
How is stalking proven?
Intent of stalker: Stalker has the intent or the knowledge that his/her actions will instill fear of death or bodily injury to the victim or a member of the victim's family or household. Threats can be explicit (e.g.-stating that he is going to kill the victim) or implied (e.g.-veiled threats, hurting the family pet). Threats have to be aimed at a specific person; they cannot be general threats. Threats may be conveyed by the stalker or by someone acting on behalf of the stalker. Conduct of stalker: Conduct has to occur on more than one occasion and be directed towards the victim and/or the victim's family or household members. More than one police report is not required. The acts may include threatening contact by mail or by phone, or damaging the victim's property.
I think this is where things get a little different - "on more than one occasion and pursuant to the same scheme or course of conduct ".
I would assume the circumstances would be considered if a person was pursuing in the effort to determine if a person was up to no good, belonged in the area, or was just passing through.
I hardly consider a neighborhood watch person following someone that had not been seen there before as stalking. I would imagine the police anywhere would not want a civilian following person or confronting them. I would also imagine the police would not complain if it led them to an arrest of a criminal.
One other thing.....Mr. Zimmerman DID call the Police and report this suspicious person. And, no matter what a 911 dispatcher tells you to do or not to do, you are NOT obligated by any law to heed their advice, certainly if they "suggest" you stop following someone. Only a suggestion, not a law.
Obviously many questions to be asked. Why did Martin call his girlfriend rather than call his parents or the police? If he felt so compelled to attack Mr. Zimmerman because he was in fear of his life, then one would tend to believe a sane, and rational human being would think that a teen would call his parents or call the police.....certainly not call a 15 or 16 year old little girl? What the heck is she going to do?
Second.....Why was there a neighborhood watch in place in this particular neighborhood? Isn't it the job of a neighborhood watch to follow suspicious persons? (I agree, maybe Mr. Zimmerman shouldn't have gotten out of his car) however he has every right to walk up to anyone he so chooses and ask why they are in his neighborhood, what their intentions are, and where they are going. Anyone of us has that same exact right, and it doesn't make it lawful for Martin to throw a blind sided haymaker on Mr. Zimmerman. Just doesn't, no matter what the arguement. You may not like the fact that I asked you, and you are not obligated to respond, however you do not have the right to use any type of physical force against the person asking the questions. If you don't like it, run away, walk away, skip away. Do what you like, but don't put your hands on the person doing the questioning.
In most states, (I think every state) we all can follow anyone we so choose, and we can follow them closely for blocks and blocks and blocks. We can follow them on foot, in a car, on a bike, behind them almost breathing down their neck, and unfortunately it's not against the law and gives no person the right to "assault me". That is NOT stalking. Stalking is completely different. It's simply a case of a neighborhood watch or concerned citizen, or absolute nut whack job following someone. Not illegal, NOT in Texas and apparentyly not in Florida either. Yes, a complete nut, whack job can be a neighborhood watchmen, he can be a wanna-be cop, a Rambo, a Tackleberry, or whatever he so chooses and yes he can follow people if he can articulate the fact that he's acting as "neighborhood watch", and even then there is no real law that mandates he be offcially registered and acting in the capacity of a "neighborhood watchman".
I think nobody disputes the fact that Mr. Zimmerman was part of the neighborhood watch. I think that is a fact, that everyone is in agreement with. I also don't think that anyone would dispute that he was following this kid because he found him to be suspicious. The only real dispute is whether or not Martin had the legal right to defend himself from a guy that was following him?
Does the VPD recommend citizens follow someone that has not commited a crime? I assume if done disceetly may not be a problem but unless you or your family are threatened confrontation is never a good idea.
I don't know JD,I was in agreement with you bu.I did look it up and I guess it would be up to the judge but I'm not in law enforcement or a lawyer.
Legal Definition of Stalking in Texas:
Penal Code Sec. 42.072 - 1997
(a) A person commits an offense if the person, on more than one occasion and pursuant to the same scheme or course of conduct that is directed specifically at another person, knowingly engages in conduct, including following the other person, that:
(1) the actor knows or reasonably believes the other person will regard as threatening:
(A) bodily injury or death for the other person;
(B) bodily injury or death for a member of the other person's family or household; or
(C) that an offense will be committed against the other person's property;
(2) causes the other person or a member of the other person's family or household to be placed in fear of bodily injury or death or fear that an offense will be committed against the other person's property; and
(3) would cause a reasonable person to fear:
(A) bodily injury or death for himself or herself;
(B) bodily injury or death for a member of the person's family or household; or
(C) that an offense will be committed against the person's property.
(b) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor, except that the offense is a felony of the third degree if the actor has previously been convicted under this section.
(c) In this section, "family," "household," and "member of a household" have the meanings assigned by Section 71.01, Family Code.
No writein...being followed does not under the law, at least in Texas, constitute being stalked. I'm not going further into it because you can easily look it up for yourself.
I'm not sure I'm following your logic.. I get it that Trayvon probably should not have been singled out but an unarmed person going after some one who has a gun, is not a wise choice. There are reports that Trayvon did not know that Zimmerman was armed... I just heard Andrea Mitchell say that the family of Trayvon have not had a day to grieve, even though this incident happened on February 26th because they are fighting against people trying to damage the reputation of their son....
I think I know what you are saying, young people seldom call 9/11 because they can handle minor skirmishes themselves.
What you said is a cop out. Following someone for whatever reason is stalking. A grown man 30 year old following a teen? Come on. I would turn around and fight back if I were stalked in the middle of the night. Let's look at the logic. Remember the rape on the bike trails? If a woman turn and attack her would be rapist. It wouldn't be her fault. Now people suggesting Martin is the blame?
labahiaNo apologies necessary because I was speaking in general terms and I was not pointing fingers but you certainly were not hijacking the blog. I understand and appreciate the spirit of your apology.....I know you understand that we will fighting the Civil War,Water Gate,Monica Gate, O.J. Simpson and every thing under the sun until some asks " what's the topic of this blog?"....Have a Good day and thanks for commenting and make it a habit..:-)
Mike, sorry for trying to hijack your thread. I removed my post, which probably wasn't appropriate anyways.
We are close to being in agreement. The idea of a neighborhood watch is to watch and call the police if there seems to be some law being broken.
We live in a small subdivision and the only thing out of place is that odd acting old man in his bathrobe pecking away on his computer. And I think I will give him his meds and take a nap.
I've always believed that the presumption of innocence should flow both ways but obviously that's not the case.
Speaking of autopsy reports, it was just reported that It could be weeks, if not months, before the medical examiner's report is made public,so some of those tid bits we have been hearing are not official or they better not be because those records are supposed to be sealed...The great thing about our justice system is the sharing of information by the defense and prosecutors.... And once again, the deceased will never get to tell his side of the story, so I hope that the jury or the prosecutor gets it right... In my opinion; and there's enough evidence to go to trial and it's the only way that justice will be served.
BTW No apology needed but we all know the course some topics take and I'm also guilty of doing that. We've been around long enough to see how those topics I mentioned will over shadow the central theme.
My definition of suspicious - Out of place. Not normally seen there. Unusual activity, such as a car with an occupant (i had never seen before) parked in my beighborhood. No, I do not think every suspicious person should be shot. But I bet there are some suspicious people out there that should be.
No finger wagging intended.
As far as my media complaints... A prime example is Fox slobbering all over themselves because of the questions the justices asked during the last 3 days Obamacare session. Fox (not Orielly) is trying to portray this all as the death of Obamacare. I disagree but it is the only recent example I can come up with.
I agree with your post. I apologize if my last post was so far off topic. My fear of irrational violence is getting the best of me. I will now take a pill and lay down.
People are getting into the "noise" I purposely stayed away from, and they might be trying to move the topic of this blog to something they want to discuss or to get the proprietors of this forum to shut down this blog.
Poster's wanting to discuss media bias, racially charged topics, or those having a desire to attack posters comments should write a blog of their own. All those subjects could be correctly associated to this topic but it shouldn't be made the central piece because that just creates a distraction I was trying to avoid.
Let's take the scenario to another level. Mr. "A" is on neighborhood watch and is armed and has a CWP. He spots someone he doesn't know, Mr."B".
Mr. "B" is visiting relatives and also is armed and has a CWP. "A" confronts "B" because he is suspicious and hello OK Corral.
Autopsy states large gaping wounds due to stupidity and being suspicious..
Thanks for the kind words and thanks for understanding my use of the word "noise" because I can see where it might be taken out a context and that was my fault.
I purposely left out the part where an NBC reporter said that if you zoom in the video to Zimmerman's head, you would have seen the contusion but then he quickly said he was not a paramedic.
As for Trayvon's cell phone call to his girlfriend rather than 911; there's no definitive answer because many times adrenaline supersedes rational thinking. As you keep stating, we'll never know Trayvon's side of the story because it will come down for forensics, testimony, and the finding of the jury or the prosecutor; if it doesn't go to trial.
I saw a clip last night where a reporter showed the exact spot where incident took place and then pointed in the general direction of Trayvon's house. The path he chose was in a direct line to his house.
Perhaps the state of Florida can come up with a law that doles out some sort of punishment for not adhering to the advice of 9/11? Of course it would be on a case-by-case basis because the 9/11 operator cannot see the situation nor should they be liable for giving unsolicited advice.
As for Trayvon calling 9/11,it seems odd to me that I've seen many posts where others had said the response time is too slow and 2nd Amendment remedies was the ideal way to go and then posted the name of their favorite gun....Fact is fear is hard to define in this case until FBI can tell who was calling for help in their cell phone plea because both sides are saying it was their guy. ..To quote Patrick Fitzgerald, the special prosecutor in the Scooter Libby case " They kicked sand in the umpire's face to prevent him from seeing the play."
Let's get some people under oath and get their depositions.
Regarding to your story about nearly being run over by a car I am glad your are safe. In the future I suggest you stay away from "suspicious" people or cars.
Because of the preconceived notion that the "liberal" media altered details to subvert the readers opinions it would seem only an unbiased news source (if there is one) should be given any credence. One comes to mind but it is named after a mammal that you want to keep out of the hen house.
It seems there are folks that emphasize their position with "I don't know" then proceed to start wagging fingers.
Being "suspicious" should not be a cause of death.
Brady,You have to understand what the victims want to portray is a innocent child who has never done anything wrong that was simply walking along with his favorite things (skittles and tea) harming no one and just being an innocent child. Toss in a few pictures of him when he was 12 or 13 and you get the crowd worked up even more.Then along comes this racially motivated white person that has always hated black people that had one goal in mind that night... Find a black kid, no matter whom, and shoot him down.They crossed paths and the rest is history. Well, almost. Then we started hearing a little more and a little more. Now we have the makings of a really good he said she said.In an effort to develop even more hatred for Zimmerman the liberal media even went so far as to edit the 911 call from Zimmerman to indicate he was after a black person and totally destroyed the context of the conversation. Or they just accidentally left out the part where the 911 operator asked what color the person was. Is Zimmerman innocent of any wrong doing? I don't knowIs Trayvon a 100% innocent child? I don't knowDid the Sanford police handle things improperly? I don't knowHopefully we all find out soon. I said it before; Zimmerman should be on the phone with Johnny Cochran and Robert Shapiro and try to set up a "dream team" of attorneys. vet43, you are kidding with your statement... flaw in both the law or the culture that demands innocent citizens be forced to justify their being present in any public place because they look "suspicious".I saw a vehicle parked in my neighborhood that looked suspicious. I approached the guy and he gave me some out of this world reply. I called the cops and it resulted in a car chase after the guy almost ran over me and one of the cops. The cops told me later to always give them a call and stop approaching suspicious people. Good advice because I don’t carry a weapon. Oh yeah, the suspicious guy in my neighborhood was white.Do you just ignore "suspicious" looking people? Have you never seen a suspicious looking person?Jason Bourne aka David Webb
HookEm1 and Legion357
HookEm 1,first thanks for reading and the kind words and I think we are both Longhorn fans...:-)
HookEm1, you took offense to my user the word "noise" so I will try to explain how I meant to use that word... I'm fully aware of the accusations, volatile rhetoric used by both sides to exploit the situation, so I'll let others fight that battle because I'm more interested in the details of this very interesting case.
I've already explain why this particular case was put into the spotlight but that's just just the opinions of a few commentators. Look around because I really don't go into that again.
This is not the first time that we have sensationalized a story and have let other similar circumstances go uncovered... They had been many young girls missing in Aruba but Natalee Holloway got all the attention. How many frat parties have gone awry but the media gave a lot of attention to the Duke La Cross team incident, and it was the same thing for the Jena Six case. It will happen again but I'm glad this case got the attention because it might stop a lot of wrongdoings ,for instance: there's a Florida task team looking at the "Stand -Your-Ground law,neighborhood watch procedures, and the list goes on.
If Mr. Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle as the 911 Operator suggested and waited for uniformed police Mr. Martin would be alive.
The recommended practice is "See Something, Say Something"', not "See Someone, Shoot Someone."
If the local Neighborhood Watch practice is to be confrontational it may be time to recalibrate the program.
Forget blame. Just consider the facts. Mr. Martin is dead. Mr. Zimmerman is alive. Who was armed and who had a bag of candy?
My only question is this: If Martin was in such fear why didn't he too call 911, much like Mr. Zimmerman did? From all the eyewitness accounts and from cell phone records, all it seems to show is that he first called his girlfriend, and then he attacked Zimmerman. Something just doesn't seem to be adding up?
There is plenty of blame for both Zimmerman and Martin. Sadly that does not change the fact that a life was lost. In reality, Martin would almost assuredly still be alive had he continued walking to his destination and not chosen to attack Zimmerman. Personally, I see Zimmerman as a cop-wanna-be who had been given a little authority and it went to his head. He should have known that following Martin might have been seen as aggressive but chose to do so anyway. However, Zimmerman was well within his rights to walk wherever he wanted and behind whoever he wanted to on public property, whether Martin liked it or not. Martin certainly had the means to call the police if he felt he was in danger but instead he called his girlfriend and ultimately turned on Zimmerman and escalated the situation. In the end...had Martin not physically assaulted Zimmerman he most likely would still be alive. Now, like everyone else on this forum, all I know about what happened has come from reading news on the Internet or watching television and these days the news certainly cannot be trusted to provide factual, accurate details on much of anything.
Amount of gun (powder) residue will be the same on shooter's clothing, hands, etc, without regard to the distance of shot fired. Blowback is identical. It could possibly sustain how close the weapon was to his body (fired from Weaver stance as opposed to firearm held close to body- as in very close conflict).
Regardless, the clothing (including shoes) should have been held for testing. Secondly, Zimmerman face, neck, arms and hands should have been tested and charted for powder residual.Since he admitted shooting, perhaps it would be a mute point. Unbelievable that the weapon was not retained- my understanding is even an law officer's weapon is always retained until judgments can be made.
It certainly appears the shooting is not defensive - instead it appears to be actions in the heat of anger. As always it is impossible to know until all evidence is in and measured. Speculation is what it is.
Your blog was well reasoned and well written. It is disturbing that there is so much "noise" from all directions that the tragedy has been lost in the Yada, Yada, Yada and finger wagging. In the real world there was no reason for this horrible loss of life. We must push aside the rancor and come to the realization that there is a systemic flaw in both the law or the culture that demands innocent citizens be forced to justify their being present in any public place because they look "suspicious".
I wasn't taking the Sanford police or State attorney as part of my comment, only what happened on that night. I didn't mean to demean the death of Trayvon, only pointed out many other people were killed that day.
But you are right, Zimmerman should have never walked out of the Sanford PD that night, more investigation should have been done initially. Casey Anthony? That girl knows more than she has told. Elections? If it wasn't for the goofy paper punch ballots Florida used at the time, the results would have been clear. Hanging chad....enough said. And the SCOTUS ruled the way it did as the final law of the land, also Gore decided not to challenge the ruling.
You are missing the point here. Sure there are other shooting and murder, but you and others are not looking at the actions of that community’s District Attorney and law enforcement. Why isn’t anyone looking at that? The D.A office should have pressed charges that night or the next day. It shouldn’t have to take Florida’s Governor and Attorney General to order an investigation. The D.A. of that county should be impeach and removed from office. Anyone better investigate Florida as a whole. If Casey Anthony can get away with murder or if an election or two were stolen, then I wouldn’t trust the system in Florida.
About 16,000 homicides occur every year in America, almost 45 a day.
In this case, if George Zimmerman, despite what ever reason he had to be suspicious of Trayvon Martin, would have not got out of his car, what the 911 dispatcher told him not to do, this homicide would not have happened.
Trayvon Martin would have made it back to his fathers house, George Zimmerman would have finished his drive around for the watch program.
But no, Zimmerman just had to be so durn suspicious, he confronted Trayvon and this is the result. Don't you think some of the other 43 or so people murdered the same day deserve some attention too?
The gun residue is a good point, however most shootings happen within 3-7ft so the proximity or distance will be hard to prove, regardless he will have gun residue from the blow back of the weapon, but the proximity will be determine from the victim, not the shooter.
Mike,I seldom agree with your opinions, but I always enjoy reading your blogs. You have a very fluid, relaxed writing style.
You say, "I'm able to put all the noise aside such as the protesters, the pundits, and posters wanting to make this incident strictly about race ...."I do not know how you can say this.
Every night, all over the country maybe hundreds of incidents just like this take place and we never hear of them. White on black, brown on white, black on black and every possible combination of crime or confrontation is committed. Maybe justice is done, or maybe justice is ignored. The point is we just do not know.To me, the 'noise" that you choose to "put aside", actually is the story. Why was this particular incident chosen for such a tremendous amount of attention and publicity? What makes this deadly confrontation different than the other deadly confrontations that happened on the same night, or any other night? Why has this particular incident galvanized the media?
To my way of thinking, it is just too much to be coincidence. I would like to know the real reason behind all of this "noise".
Great Blog Mike!
Zimmerman will or will not be indicted for something. Until that occurs, I am perfectly content to ignore all of the racist crap coming from all sides on the issue.