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Me harping? Nope I am not harping, I am bringing up a statement, blog, you made. Which shows that are you are a hypocrite. How can you blast someone for doing something, what you are doing now? You need to practice what you preach.
Even Mr. Condell is right now and then, this video indicates to me that this could be one of those times.
Believers do not have authority to threaten non believers with eternal damnation. It is not their job. So while I don't agree with Mr. Condell in his rant against evangelical Christians, I must say he seems to feel a need to defend his position. And that is his right.
Building a mosque where it is planned to be built is offensive to many Americans, but not to others. People, even those very close to a tragedy, have different ways of dealing with tragedy and loss, and it appears that more would be hurt and offended by the building of a mosque at that site.
This is not about religious freedom. It is about where to or not to build a building that is being built due to the devastation some crazy people belonging to this religion caused. If they truly wanted to heal or bridge a gap, they have seen that this is not the way and some very reasonable members of this religion have said as much.
ZMAN: You said there is "probably" a legal right to build there: It's not a question of "probable" right - it is a right - plain and simple. The First Amendment in our Bill of Rights reads, "Congress shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting free exercise thereof." It's pretty cut a dry. It is a false analogy to compare the KKK in this instance, because the KKK is not a religion. It's not a property right issue and connot be compared to baning smoking either. While I agree that it is insensitive, it one of the basic rights our Founding Fathers established for us. We can't just ignore it. I don't think we can say that by following the Bill of Rights, Obama "bowed again to Islam"; he bowed to the Bill of Rights.
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Writein...Sorry, I forgot to answer your other two questions and I know how cranky than makes you.
No, I do not think it's time to know the person of islamic faith. I thought there were a lot more than that, quite frankly.
Oh, jeeze....are you STILL harping on that stupid basketball player? In the first place, J, I couldn't fire him. He didn't work for me. He exercised his right to speak his mind as guaranteed by the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. Nobody stopped him from speaking. I was exercising the same right under the same amendment when I said that I thought he should be fired. Since I have no influence over the owner of an NBA team, I'm not surprised my advice wasn't followed. Once again, and I hope for the last time, I was pointing out that the exercising of your free speech, free press, freedom to assemble rights can have consequenses. If you don't believe me, go to your boss and tell him that you think he's a jackass and only got his job by kissing a vice presidnet's ..... uh, ring. A friendly hint here: before you do that, you might want to make sure your resume' is updated, but you go right ahead and exercise your right to free speech.
Writein..."What does American and Allied Mulsim troops who fight for your right to speak your ill will about Muslims?"
Since that isn't a sentence, I'll try to decipher it and answer. I appreciate their service and sacrifice.
If the 9-11 attackers had been WASPs, and had done their deeds IN THE NAME OF THEIR RELIGION, I'd never trust any member of that religion again. I have some antipathy toward baptists because of the actions of that bunch of morons who protest at military funerals, claiming that combat deaths are god's punishment for homosexuals or some such lunacy.
“And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit.”
“Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve”
"Neither those who disbelieve among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) nor Al-Mushrikûn (the idolaters, polytheists, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh, pagans, etc.) like that there should be sent down unto you any good from your Lord. But Allâh chooses for His Mercy whom He wills. And Allâh is the Owner of Great Bounty
Here are a few more questions for you.
1) Do you think it is time for you to know the person who is of the Islamic faith?
2) How would you feel if the terrorists on 9-11 was WASP ???
3) How can you bash all and sterotype all Muslims, when two years ago on this site wanted to fire an Dallas Basketball Player for doing the same about White Christian Americans?
Ingorance creates more ingorance. You paint a whole group of people as evil. That is ingornat of you. Finally, I ask you a question on another forum, my blog, I believe. What does American and Allied Mulsim troops who fight for your right to speak your ill will about Muslims? Don't BS with me, just answer the question.
Holein1...Just how much exposure to the modern world will it take for islam to exit from the dark ages? There are international airlines into and out of the middle east. There is the internet -- except when they censor it. There is radio and television and newsapers and magazines. They send people to universities in the west to study and yet, they are still mired in the 1500s. It isn't because of there not being enough contact; it's because the religious leaders won't allow the people to become enlightened. Keep'em ignorant and they're much easier to convince to hate us. They are much more likely to agree to strap on a C-4 vest and blow themselves up in a restaurant or theater. The only advance I've seen lately is a nuclear reactor in iran -- which, of course, is to be used exclusively for the generation electricity.
To answer your question specifically, I don't know any muslims personally. I did enter the mosque one time. It was sometime in, oh about 2003. I was working for the airline here and some bags came in late. I delivered them to the mosque. I was treated cordially, but the hair was standing up on the back of my neck the entire three or four minutes I was inside. It is entirely possible that I really am a terrible person, but I could not escape the vision in my mind's eye of that second 767 slamming into the WTC tower and later the towers falling. I know that nobody in Victoria had anything to do with that, but it was a creepy feeling being in the mosque. The only other dealings I had with the muslim community was the imam (I guess that is what he was) would fly out of here on occasion and his name was on the no-fly list. We had to clear him and he'd get pretty nasty about it if it took a few minutes.
www- you bring up some very good points.
however, are you suggesting that America would somehow turn its back on injustice? you said yourself that America has intervened on numerous occasions to proctect victims in saudi aradia, egypt and other countries. would we not do the same on American soil? America makes it own laws and won't let anyone subvert them, not even muslims. sharia law will never be the law of the land in America.
have you considered that perhaps a better relationship with the west and more exposure to the cultures of the west would help to bring the arab world out of the dark ages? it seems that there have been huge strides made in just the recent past.
everything you know about islam is delivered by a third party, unless you actually know a muslim. do you? visit the mosque in town and see for yourself. if you are not treated with kindness and welcomed, then i would be surprised. that is of course, considering you are going with an open mind and are respectful. you haven't shown anything that would make me think you wouldn't.
All of the 9/11 terrorist were members of their local mosque located within the USA. I don’t recall any other extremist groups flying airplanes into buildings and killing 3000 people. I guess one can apply extremist to about anything, then again it depends where you draw the line on extremism. How soon some forget…
Thetolerantguy...I stand by it. In this country, the extremists who commit murder in the name of god are prosecuted and put into prison in contrast to islam which CONDONES murder in the name of allah. I didn't say there were no extremists other than muslims. I did say that I'd never heard any good things about islam. There may be, but I haven't heard them. By the way, I appreciate your not lumping me in with christian extremists since I'm not christian.
thewaywardwind, you didn't raise my hackles until this part :
"Apologists always bring up christian extremists who murder abortion providers. The difference is that extremist christians who murder doctors in this country are are tracked down, prosecuted and put into prison -- not treated as heroes."
Have you forgotten about these guys : http://www.armyofgod.com/ or the American Coalition of Life Activists? The truth is, there are christian extremists, jewish extremists, islamic extremists. Organized religion, by its very nature, breeds and encourages extremists. Please don't lump all muslims together, just as I wouldn't lump you together with Army of God.
Some have indicated in a round about way there must be a terrorist detector at the front door of these mosque. Where do you think these terrorist get their motivation, its ding sure not at the bowling ally? I would like to see some of you try and walk into a mosque carrying the holy bible and see how for you get, even without it, you might get by with a rug in hand. These mosques have more security than the President. If one would like to read a good book on terror try the Koran.
Maikeru, Holein1, and KyleC...This might be a tad long. Sorry 'bout that.
I read what you posted and you're right. You're saying the same things to me that I said earlier to people who were opposed to gay marriage because of some religious thing or just because they don't like gays. I am guilty of the same thing.
That being said, however, I doubt I can change my opinions. Everything I see and read about islam is about the brutality, the barbarity of sharia law and how they treat women and anyone else they don't like. I read about women who are not allowed to drive, to go to school, innocently have a conversation with a man not her husband. I've seen the way islamic women are required to dress in saudi arabia, iran and other islamic countries. I read about "honor killings" where fathers or brothers kill their daughters or sisters for the crime of dating someone not a muslim, for getting pregnant outside marriage, and worst of all, for being raped. I have seen articles about young women (and some men) being stoned to death for having an affair and others who were save from stoning only because the civilized world intervened. There is a story circulating now about a man, I think in saudi arabia, whose spine the prosecutor wants to sever because he left another man paralized after a fight. I read about the lopping off of hands of thieves and cutting off of heads with the APPROVAL of the imams. I see that the laws of islamic countries must conform to religious doctrine. It seems to me that islam has not progressed much since the 1500s yet I read about how they want to spread islam and sharia law through out the world. They don't want to progress past the 16th century; they want to drag the rest of the world back into the dark ages with islam dominating the world.
Apologists always bring up christian extremists who murder abortion providers. The difference is that extremist christians who murder doctors in this country are are tracked down, prosecuted and put into prison -- not treated as heroes. Justice prevails -- real justice, not some perverted religious justice where the victim is further victimized.
Call me islamophobic or racist or bigoted. I see these things regarding islam and I cannot change my opinion of the religion of peace and love.
At first it seemed that the mosque controversy was some bizarre return to political correctness by the right but the longer it goes on and the bigger it gets the more suspicious I am that the mosque matter is a cynical ploy by the right to enlist the religious right which have by and large abandoned politics with the rise of the tea partyers. Given the economy it will be interesting to see if the ground zero mosque red herring will have legs to make it until November. Recent employment and stock market reports indicate probably not.
Do we equate the Southern Baptist religion with their bible thumping KKK terrorist brethren? Would a Southern Baptist Church be allowed to be built next to a MLK Museum?
Personally, I don’t give a rats butt about appeasing Anglos who feel they can pick and choose which rights apply to Muslin Americans.
My President was sworn in (with hand on Bible) to uphold The Constitution and that’s what he’s doing. A great opportunity to stand up and show some guts and patriotism.
Ditto holein1, well said Maikeru!
thanks for that maikeru. i don't think i could have said it better myself. saves me the time.
All members of Al Qaeda are Muslims. Not all Muslims (of which there are about 1.5 billion!!) are members of Al Qaeda. It's a shame that you think that every Muslim in America and abroad has anywhere near the same agenda as the extremists of Al Qaeda. Do you think all Catholics approve of what a small number of priests did to children? Do you think all Christians in general approve of the murder of abortion doctors and the bombing of abortion clinics?
Tell me how the people behind the "Ground Zero Mosque" (which isn't at Ground Zero, and isn't actually a mosque) have ties to Al Qaeda beyond "We're part of the same religion as a whole," and then I may be a bit more willing to buy into the line of thinking that equates it with a "KKK assembly near a civil rights monument."
The difference between a KKK shrine and Park51 (the "Ground Zero Mosque") is that one would clearly be the work of a group of extremists--white supremacists--and one would not. The person behind this project, Feisal Abdul Rauf, is hardly an extremist. Or maybe I'm watching the wrong news networks or reading the wrong online publications and the truth is actually held within a small set of out-of-context lines parroted by Rick Lazio, Newt Gingrich, Sarah Palin, and other conservative figures jockeying for the position of the GOP's ideological cornerstone.
Heard they are putting a suicide bomber recruiting center near ground zero too.
Holein1...Are you suggesting that al qeada ISN'T muslim? And, please explain how a kkk shrine next to a MLK museum is somehow different. I would think a kkk shrine would be an afront to decent people anywhere, much less next to a memorial to Martin Luther King.
I guess I have missed something. The community center is for Muslims. It is not for Al Qeada. That would be a whole different set of circumstances.
Comparing the KKK building anything near a Civil Rights monument is not the same.
Are you saying there is no distinction between Islam and Al Qeada?
If I were the mother or wife or daughter of someone that died in the 9/11 attacks I would be picketing in front of the site they want to build the mosque. It is an affront to us as a nation and I have to agree with the writer of this article the president should have showed some guts and stood up and said Not now Not ever. When did we as a nation come to believe that anything goes. I am a Christian and as a parent and grandparent I am deeply worried about the future for my loved ones.
Holein1 I its not a matter of tearing down a church, its a matter of poor taste and lack of regard for the victims of the attack. I would like to see all the mosque defenders get red in the face and blow a gasket the minute a group such as the KKK attempts to build a meeting hall or assembly near a civil rights monument. It would be called distasteful,unconstitutional and the lib's would be out in full protest, threatening investigations (Pelosi), Obama would be ready to use military force, Hillary would prepare a new tougher hate crime bill , The Rev.Jackson and Sharpton would be grinning from ear to ear because finally they would have a legit gripe. Big J would pee his pants! Mike would have a stroke and Kyle C would defend the rights of the klan. (That's according to what he said on another blog when the situation was posed to him) I would never pretend I would support anyone's rights when they are so far from what is moral or even decent, just because its legal doesn't make it right!!
dd-are they tearing down a church to build a mosque? if they were then I would be against it. they are not so i'm not.
they idiots that planned and executed the 9/11 attacks were representatives of a fanatical group, not representatives of Islam.
dd-i really thought you were smarter that than.
Z-Man you are correct in your statements, we need more sane people to speak out against this type of nonsense. I am unabashedly Christian and will stand on the truthfulness of God's word, and the Christian heritage of this once great nation. And surprisingly more people are standing against this mosque and letting their voices be heard.
Some time ago, an order of Catholic nuns built a nunnery on the grounds of Auschwitz. The nuns who were in residence there spent their waking hours praying for the souls of EVERYONE who died there. Despite the obvious ecumenical nature of this establishment, a number of Jewish organizations and individuals saw this as an attempt by a Catholic group to take over "their" site. The Pope finally intervened and asked the nuns to move to a site outside the grounds of Auschwitz. The nuns complied with his request.
The uproar over the nunnery at Auschwitz pales in comparison to that over a mosque at Ground Zero. We shall see if the moslems can demostrate the same amount of class as was demonstrated by the Catholics.
Pat's an atheist and an equal opportunity critical thinker :-)
For balance here's his comedic rant about Evangelical Christians
As Richard Dawkins says of the man: "Pat Condell is unique. Nobody can match his extraordinary blend of suavity and savagery. With his articulate intelligence he runs rings around the religious wingnuts that are the targets of his merciless humour. Thank goodness he is on our side,"