This is what happens when you get lawyers involved. If we were to just change state certified marriages to state certified unions the problem would be solved. All states should just change the wording and then there would be no abridgement between the seperation of church and state. Homosexuals could be granted every right under the law as Heterosexual without arguement.

J..."Waywardwind.

YOU STILL DIDN’T ANSWER THE QUESTION."

BigJ...I still don't know what the question IS!!!!

Big J, quit making stuff up about me! I don't hate believers. I have plenty of family members and friends that are believers. I don't hate any of them. Your the one full of hate because someone does not believe in something you can't prove. You brought up raciam in this thread and mentioned my name too. So don't give me your bunk about what I said not having any merit. Josh, seems funny that people think this topic is being talked about to much but they have time to come here and post their responses when they could easily just not read your blog. Please keep it up and thank you!

"Josh is the one beating this topic into ground. Nearly every blog is over the same worn out subject."

Pot, meet kettle.

This whole blog is such a waste of human thought and devoid of any merit. If being gay was ok, and everyone was gay, how would the world propogate. Humankind would cease to exist. It is not natural. Also, being redneck does not mean you beat your wife and kids and grunt. Whoever thinks that is guilty of profiling!
OOps did I say that? Only staights and narrow minded Christins carry that card, right? Wrong. There is such a double standard about everything and the younger generation has been taught that tolerance is tantamount to peace. So if you have a differing opinion, you are a hate-monger and need to be silenced. Have we come so far from our roots? There is such a thing as absolute right and wrong. Black and white. I am not a hate monger. I have an employee or two who are without a doubt gay and lesbian. I love them both as individuals. I just think that marriage is and should be limited between a man and a woman. If society wants to recognize other unions it should be able to, but it should not be defined as traditional marriage. Lets makle no comparison. Let's make a seperate class and definition.

Beating it into the ground? PLEASE! that's why you are comment number 74!

Don't Lie! You can't get enough of this topic.... :)

And also, the lady in the second video looks freakin' SCARY!!!

I can't believe you guys are still beating this one to death. I am gay, but I don't give a poop about getting married. Let the breeders suffer with that one. What I do care about is if I get messed up in a car wreck, and I'm not going to come out of it, my partner should be able to make that decision for me.

Josh...That is as well stated and articulate an argument as I have ever heard. I don't expect it to resonate well with some of the people on this site, but I wish you well. How right you are that someone else's marriage will NOT affect any other marriage. I've been married 36 years and cannot fathom how your being allowed to marry whomever you wish could affect my wife and me. You will have a long fight ahead of you, I'm afraid, but hang in and it will happen. Time passes and prejudices will erode.

"Josh, what do you want?

1. Do you want Homosexuality to be apart of government certified marriages, recognized by every state?
2. Do you want Homosexuality to be apart of Christian accepted marriages recognized by God,
3. Or do you want Christians to just accept Homosexuality.

You may have a chance at number (1), if Homosexual marriages are kept out of church services. So which is it, Josh?

What do you want?"

This is such a good question, and I thank you John for asking.

Let me start off by saying that what I want is number 1.

Now, let me elaborate on this.... I want more than anything to have 100 percent legally recognized rights and privileges and institutions as any straight couple is allotted in this country, I want my husband to be able to visit me in the hospital God forbid anything happen to me or vice versa. I want all the equal perks and bonuses as well as all the disadvantages of marriage. If a woman were to go to a hospital and say that she needs to see her husband right away, they will let her in without a doubt. I want the same thing for gay people.

I honestly don't care about what the religious aspect of it all has to do with it, if it even does. You can be gay, and be christian or muslim or jewish or whatever. That's not the problem.

Of course it's going to be a hard thing to accomplish, because the idea and the institution of marriage in this country is not completely separated from the idea and institution of marriage based on biblical or religious beliefs.

Face it people, a lot of people including BigJ want to talk about how marriage is based in the christian religion, and as factual as that may be for him, I have to disagree when people say that allowing gay marriage will somehow disrupt or void or somehow derail the meaning of their own marriages. I hate it when people say that we need to keep the idea of marriage the same and leave it traditional. But that's impossible! The government has changed the meaning of marriage, to shy away from it's "religious" past. It no longer means a man/woman's love for the opposite sex. It's a legal binding contract that allows certain rules and privileges concerning doctor visits, health care opportunities, adoption opportunities, tax benefits, not to mention hundreds of other "bonuses" that you wouldn't even think matter, that matter to us.

I think what needs to happen is the government needs to tweak a couple of words to add us in. SIMPLE as that.

I'm not asking for acceptance, that is an 80's/early 90's term.

Now all we want is 100% equality.

I brought up slavery because BigJ mentioned the Bible and racism and my name. Big J, you said Slavery was punishment, that's for sure. And an horrible practice. That does not mean it is right and can you show me where Christ said slavery is wrong? The south used the Bible to justify their ownership of slaves.

Bravo, Pilot! Well said. Spot on. And so forth.

Big J, no the Bible has never been used to justify anything like slavery. Oh wait, yes it has. And Jesus seemed to be ok with it to. You can find passages referencing and codoning slavery in the Bible. At no point does God express any disapproval of enslaving human beings. But he does approve of and regulate slavery. And Jesus could have said slavery was wrong but never did.

J..."You and your “OX BOW” offense ."
"It is because people like you and your “OX BOW” mentality blast Islam for the acts of a few."

Sigh...I just KNOW I'm going to regret this, but WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? OX BOW offense means absolutely nothing to me. I don't know what you mean. Did I do something to some of your livestock?

"You are still avoiding the question."
"Unlike you, I will answer the question with all honestly. I hope you will be a man and do likewise."

J, J...What question am I avoiding? The main thing I see you're mad about is the fact that I expressed an opinion about your boyfriend, the basketball player and it hurt your feelings. I don't have a clue what you're ranting about.

LisaAnn, the reason religion gets dragged into this is that acceptance of gay marriage as a legal right may devolve into the government demanding churches perform such when it may be against thier beliefs. I, for one, do not see that happening. Afterall, this exact thing, ie: government intrusion into churches, is spelled out in the first admendment. Albeit, in the modern interpretation, it has been twisted around backward to mean "no church intrusion into government".

Sweet Justice-I heard that Miss California Carrie Prejean will be losing her crown!

Whoever said religion shouldn't be brought in to it was right. I shouldn't have said anything about it. The simple fact is none of this should have to do with religion either way because its a government issue.

BigJ - I don't know if there really would be a problem if 50% of one gender was homosexual and the other gender was only 5%. If women had higher numbers of lesbians then wouldn't the problem with population control become less of an issue. Of course there is still always the possibility of insemination by other means, but I would think it would help. And if it was reversed, I think Pilot would have a point for the male gender. What ever straight men were left wouldn't have to try so hard.

Also you made mention of interracial marriages, however no more than 60 years ago a thing of this nature was unacceptable. People would be killed, or hung, or what have you for a kiss let alone a marriage. And still to this day its frowned upon by many people from older generations. But most of our generation accepts this as a normal thing.

Also, they have isolated certain genes that may be responsible for sexuality. It could very well be a fluid trait.

And I will apologize for any cheap shots I took before that was wrong of me. But as for the comment about seeing people out and showing affection its not uncommon. Just cause you don't notice it doesn't mean its not there.

"We are not the same person."

No insult intended. It sorta seemed that there was the nasty poster under BigJ and the nice guy under John. Sorry 'bout the misunderstanding. My apologies.

LoL, yeah my composition sucks.

For the record, I am not “anti-gay rights”. It’s simply against my faith to condone Homosexuality as a life choice. However, I accept homosexuals as much as I accept anyone. I believe Homosexual rights under the constitution should be respected equally to those of Heterosexuals.

Just because “my beliefs” don’t agree with another persons doesn’t mean I am “anti-them”. On the contrary, we can exercise our different beliefs under the law without conflict.

“Give unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar, give unto God that which belongs to God”, God has granted to the kingdoms of this world the right to lay laws unto men, but no kingdom has the power to have those laws respected in heaven.

We are not the same person.

My reasons for seeking public service are rather personal and quite profound. Despite my whimsical nature, I’m serious. It’s not the position that I take serious but the impact my leadership may have on good people, especially those tired of corruption and manipulation. I am getting older and I would like to grow old in Victoria, because of my extensive family roots. Regardless, I am a man of reason and intelligence if certain conditions are allowed to exist or grow, I don’t see this happening.

There comes a time in a persons life when you have to separate all the bull, and face reality. I want to live where I feel safe, the young ones have a bright future, an honest hard working man or women can receive and honest pay, and where common sense values are common.

From my discussions on here, I feel a lot of people feel the same way.

God willing I will run, be elected, and even those with opposing views will come to respect my desire to make Victoria be a home where we can “all” grow old in peace and with dignity.

Sorry Josh, I’ll stay on subject now.

John, are you and BigJ one and the same? The reason I'm asking is that you both use "apart" incorrectly, you both are contemplating running for office and you both are anti-gay rights.

You wrote:
"1. Do you want Homosexuality to be apart of government certified marriages, recognized by every state?
2. Do you want Homosexuality to be apart of Christian accepted marriages recognized by God,

Some time ago, BigJ told me that if I was not "apart" of the solution, I was "apart" of the problem.

At the time, I thought perhaps that J made a typo, but he did it twice in one sentence so I figured a typo was not the reason he used the wrong word. Now, you've used "apart" incorrectly twice so I figure that's not a typo either. Are y'all one and the same or is this just some wierd cosmic coincidence?

A simple question, since I’m considering seeking an office in Victoria, in the not to distant future; I would appreciate your response. What do you want?

Josh, what do you want?

1. Do you want Homosexuality to be apart of government certified marriages, recognized by every state?
2. Do you want Homosexuality to be apart of Christian accepted marriages recognized by God,
3. Or do you want Christians to just accept Homosexuality.

You may have a chance at number (1), if Homosexual marriages are kept out of church services. So which is it, Josh?

What do you want?

J..."Since you bought up interracial marriage. First of all Moses wife is Black. Now on my final point with you. How can you talk about that when you blasted all Muslims and all Arabs after criticizing a NBA player blasting America and white people?????? I never gotten an answer from you."

I'm not sure how Moses wife got into this conversation, but Moses wife is DEAD. I neither know nor care about her skin color.

I can't believe you're still going on about some idiot BASKETBALL player about whom I expressed an opinion. I have answered you J, several times, trying without evident success to tell you that what I expressed was my OPINION. Just like certain body orifices, everybody has'em. I expressed mine and for some reason known to you alone, you took offense. That's okay. You take offense with just about everything I say. It gives me reason to get up in the morning.

What I said to Brian was that he should think for himself -- to understand that just because something is "in the Bible" that it's not necessairly true. You didn't like my created from a handful of dirt remark and came back with ashes to ashes; dust to dust. If that's indeed the case, are you saying that some were created from fire? Come on, J, there is a LOT in the Bible that flies in the face of reason and simply cannot be true. If you want to accept it as fact, that's your right. I was simply urging Brian to not simply accept what someone says is true but to examine the issue and decide for himself exactly what he believes. If it turns out that he truely believes in his heart that the Bible is correct in all things, fine; he's one of millions who do.

You claim to be Christian but you seem to be more mad about comments made about islam than christianity. Why is that, J?

Depends on your definition of gay. People do it all the time in prison.

Big J, how in the world is asking you if you could switch from being straight to homosexual have anything to do with religion? You said women do it all the time and I asked if you could. Do you really think a heterosexual person can just suddenly say they are going to be gay and poof they are a homosexual?

treacie72, first of all. WHO ARE YOU?

Now, I don't know what planet you are from but I think what he did was very nice, and yes I do accept your apology.

what it with this whole "not seeing his point" thing? I am 22 years young, and I have the sense and ability to see things that you could never imagine. I have enough sense to see that people are not just waking up sunday morning and thinking to themselves, ha you know what? I think I'm going to be gay. I have lived on this earth being FORCED to "see his point" sweetheart. I am FORCED. Day in and day out, when I see straight/bisexual people do things that I myself could not do unless I want to be ridiculed, harassed, or even threatened... When that happens to you, then you can talk to me about seeing someone's point. HE CAME AT ME, therefore he should apologize, which now he has, therefore that entire subject is OVER.

Pilot, no offense. A little grammar never hurt anyone.
My other comments are in reference to those made by JoshLeeR.

Amazing how the religious right always cherry picks things out of the bible to back their bigotry. I'm pretty sure Jesus was not that big on family. He never got married and he even said if a man could castrate himself that would be a good thing. And didn't he tell people to leave their family and follow him? Does not sound like he cared to much about family values.And the bible is full of polygamy! So much for traditional marriage values coming from the bible!

Do not presume to know what kids are thinking..you obviously have no clue.
My kids and most all of their friends DO care about gay. Do not assume they are "dumb" just because they may not agree with your choices. The ones I talk to on a daily basis, are sick of hearing about how someone's sexual preference has to be indoctrinated into almost every conversation..why is that?
In reference to your comment about children "knowing if they're coming out before age 18"? They do not walk around on the playground citing their sexual preferences, they don't even know what it is or care, as it should be. Why should a kid be preoccupied with sexuality?

Big J, so are you saying that you could be gay if you wanted to be?

brian_200256..."I agree with "BigJ" 100%. Marriage should be in between a man and a woman. Its set in stone, read the bible."

Uhhh, Brian, is that the same bible that says people were created out of a handful of dirt and rib bones? The same one that says people lived for hundreds of years? The same one that says Lot's wife was suddenly turned into a pillar of salt? The same one that says it's an abomination to eat shellfish? The same one that says it's an abomination to wear clothes of differing fabric? The same one that says it's an abomination to store meat and milk together?

You said you're young. I urge you to think for yourself. Does any of this REALLY make sense to you? Does it make any difference in the way YOU live YOUR life if two men or two women fall in love with each other and wish to marry? HOW does that affect you? It can't and it doesn't. I am old enough to remember when it was illegal for a black and white couple to marry. Today, it still draws some sideways glances, but it is acceptable in society. I hope that within my lifetime, the same can be said for gay people. Nobody says you have to have to practice homosexuality if you don't want to. You can still live your life the way you have always done so. It would be great if you could see your way through to grant gays that same courtesy.

I agree, no need for a "grammar Nazi." All of this has strayed away from the point, pandora's box has been open for quite some time & whether or not this generation is ready already for open homosexuality is not up to one homosexual's opinion! (imo). If it were the place or the time, do you all not think it would be happening -- and passing in legislature?!
Yes they are limited editions because their choice to out themselves does nothing to better life, only their own selfish need to have public recognition. WHY.

Almost 'Seussical', if you will.

I kind of like 'paradox box', Pilot. It has a bit of a snappy sound.

Big J

Have you been to the Victoria Mall lately? There are people all over that place making out, and doing all kinds of things in public, you just have to notice it.

Whoops, I guess my comment is too long check my blog titled:

"Special "Protections" For a Marginalized Majority?"

Special protection Part# 2continued:

Moreover, the whole concept of carving out special “religious protections” (reported as a major trend by Peter Steinfels in the New York Times and now favored by leading gay activists as part of their push for same sex marriage) reflects the certainty that faith-based organizations will become an immediate and prime target of the gay rights movement. Regardless of any legislative efforts to protect dissenters in their exercise of conscience, the granting of government sponsorship of same sex matrimony will clearly put the force of bureaucratic power and social sanction on the other side. Instead of tolerating and protecting the minority rights of that tiny group that wants to live in same sex couples (through, say, the institution of civil unions), activists now propose to tolerate and defend the majority that rejects the idea of gay marriage. In other words, traditionalists are supposed to accept the fact that, despite clear-cut majorities in election after election and poll after poll, we must accept a new status as a fringe-group minority with special protections – until judges come along to strip away those defenses and to force compliance to the new tyranny of “marriage equality,” regardless of the doctrines of long-standing faith tradition (and secular common sense) that we may continue to uphold.

The prospect threatens not only the future of the institution of marriage (by altering that institution beyond recognition) but the core idea of this Republic--that legal standards and social norms should reflect the preferences (or at least the consent) of the majority of the people.

You pay taxes as an American, if you don't like it you can leave it. Everybody else has to pay it, and just because your a lesbian or a gay male you think your different from everybody else, you should have all these rights, well you're wrong. Theirs no such thing. You're a human being you have all the organs as everybody else. You may be different in the head but that's about it.
I agree with "BigJ" 100%. Marriage should be in between a man and a woman. Its set in stone, read the bible. Besides that would you really want to walk into public, and see two gay males making out?? No, quite frankly that's disgusting. No one wants to see that besides the posers and the other gay men. I DO agree on one subject, that is No making out in public regardless gay or straight, no one wants to see it. But maybe I am the only one who thinks this?

I am speaking as a teenager growing up in all this hub-ub of gay marriage, and gay rights. You're thinking that I surround myself with straight people, and im just some kind of kid who thinks hes bad ass because he owns a keyboard. But you're wrong. What I mean about surrounding myself, I mean that the actual gay, and Bi sexual people, literally say themselves that they can't decide or it's just a phase. Myself I think that you're not born gay that it is a choice, because God created everybody equal, and there are just a few people (gays, bi, rapist, etc....) that stand out in the crowd, and these people had the choice to Kill, rape, or anything for that matter. But ill get to the point, I don't think that our generation knows what were even doing. History repeats itself.
If you want to be gay, or a lesbian or anything like that if you don't mess with me, and keep it away from me were not going to have much of a problem.
Thats just my two cents on all this.
It may or not make scene to some of you.

Do not ask for forgiveness from a person who will not see your point of view Rusty. I agree with BigJ and anyone else against gay ethics.

Pilot - you seem to fall in a category I would call "hippie" for the simple reason you are conveying a love one love all debate. Additionally, your comment about it being a win win for men is sad. I never had finding a mate.

About this men/men or women/women thing. As long as they don't try to recruit anyone else, let'em have at it. 50% of the men and the same percentage of women might be the best thing to happen to this planet. Not from the moral standpoint but for POPULATION CONTROL. Now, let's avoid the abortion issue, okay? There's tooooo friggin' many people in the world now. It's a shame that those who're "gonna go gay". don't do it before they reach puberty. That in itself would save untold billions of dollars not spent on all the "PROGRAMS" geared to the "let's make all the babies we can, we don't need to get married, 12 or thirteen is too young to marry anyway" crowd.

Lisa: Where do u see straights makin' out in public? At my advanced age there's not many places for me to be worryin' about who's makin' out. My comment was about printed stuff, mostly Vicad blogs. Oh, yes, who brought up rednecks?
JOSH, you're right, this old phart "cast the first stone". I wouldn't've said anything else had I not replied to Grifter. Yes, I did attack you and shouldn't have. So with chin on chest and tail between the hind legs, I must ask forgiveness. PAX this seems to me to be my first time to comment on this subject.

Alton, people that are not religious get married too. And for a very long time marriage was about the transfer of property(the bride) from one man(the father) to another man(the groom). I don't think most people would define marriage that way today. Nor do I think people accept the definition of marriage to be between a man and several women(ok some mormons do). But that was allowed at one time. So the defintion of marriage seems to have certainly changed over the years. And you don't even have to get married in a church the marriage certificate is a secular document not a religious one.

While the concept that a legal marriage should be redefinied to include same sex unions taking vows as a form of equality will be debated for a very long time--- Maybe you can explain to me, why a civil union with what ever ceremony the "couple" desire is not sufficent and why the big push for redefinition of a religious tradition that is over a 1,000 years old.

I have noticed over the last few months, that this "equality" right is being pushed to include all forms of cohabitation; two individuals of the same sex with a person of the opposite sex and two couples of the traditionial union as a single "marriage". Where will all this "equality" stop?

I believe lawyers support all of these modification of the definition of marriage, it would increase their business.

I would like to say that any redefinition will not affect me, but it would increase the out lays of Social Security benefits ,change inheritance laws, and be something else I will have to explain to my grandchildren.

Big J, are you saying that if you wanted to you could turn gay? I mean if your saying any woman could switch does that mean you could too?

Does anyone remember this?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

No matter how many times I read it I can not find the section that says your rights are forfeit if you are gay.

I am not gay but I do believe that everyone has the right to be happy as long as it does not hurt anyone else and as best as I can tell loving and caring about another human being doesn't hurt anyone.

Okay, BigJ.

Let me tell you what's going to happen if half of the lets say men, on earth are gay. Fine, we get it. and let's say only 5% of women are lesbians. You are saying that society will not be good after a certain point of gay increasing on one gender, than the other right?

I am going to be completely honest with you, I DON'T KNOW!!! and the point I'm trying to make is NEITHER DO YOU. That point you are trying to make is very vague. I am going to assume these beliefs that you have to make you even come up with something like this... 1) you might not believe that sexuality is a fluid trait. 2) although you are not basing your "point" on either religion, or the bible, I still cannot accept the fact that you came to this conclusion based solely off of intellect or even common knowledge for that matter.

I am someone who believes that God creates everything, logic tells me that God made me. Logic also allows me to assume that gay is and always has been and always will be no more than 10 percent of the population.

Now in the event that this should happen, I would assume that somehow we would be able to take advantage of our technological breakthroughs in the medical field to aid in the reproduction of humans. OBVIOUSLY we are not going to be thinking about how life on earth is screwed because these gay men don't want to take hold of women.

As far as I'm concerned your argument is quite flawed. And since gays are born of breeders it wouldn't too much be our fault anyway then would it? (not that you are playing the blame game)

That's pretty gay... JK

You shouldn't have to explain anything to him... Just because this guy is a little cookoo for cocoa puffs doesn't mean they whole culture is...They act like most straight people aren't crazy. Just cause that one guy is a little nuts you don't judge a whole culture. If that happened every person who came from a small town would be considered a dumb hick. And that would include just about everyone in Victoria

mytwocents, please judge others in the same way you would want to be judged. Did you bother to read what I wrote underneath the post of that video? YEAH, that little section under it that says you may want to use selective hearing on that part!? Gosh, now I'M convinced.

Ok so by your standards, the rednecks who run around smashing beer cans on their forehead, carrying a rifle in their truck, getting in to fights just to prove their "manliness," objectifying women, beating their kids and wives to show who is boss and acting as if they still live in a cave and have to hunt down a dinosaur for dinner, all the while dragging their knuckles in the dirt - is what?? Normal society? Crawl out of your box!!

Why do people always say that "the gays" are throwing their lifestyle in peoples face? What do they think happens everytime a straight couple makes-out in public? Don't they consider that throwing it in someones face. I mean there is a double standard there that no one can dispute. The only reason people really shy away from gays & lesbians because they have been taught that being that way is a sin. I'm not really religious but none of the 7 deadly sins nor the commandments say anything about "THOU SHALL NOT BE GAY" so why is it a such abig deal?

GRIFTER: I don't consider having their PELOSI thrown in our face everytime we turn around is NICE either. why don't they just shut that PELOSI up already? This is one of the things us INTOLERANT, OLD FASHIONED, OLD FOGEYS GET SO FRIGGIN' TIRED OF.

Old rusty bucket. LOL! I loved your comment! It made me laugh.. I'll admit it did sting a little, but hell, I don't have anything negative to say about you, I don't effin' know you and why would I want to? Why don't you act your age? oh wait, it's posted on your user name; OLDRUSTYBUCKET1.

Rusty that was not very nice

If gays and lesbians do not have the right to marriage equality then why should they have to pay taxes? To be a second class citizen. And how can the same sex couples that got married last year in california still be legal but other same sex couples can't get married. Are those 18,000 couples a limited edition?